@lucia just seen your message. Well the octopus saga continues as I have just had to have a resurvey as they were concerned about the pipe run not having enough drop, no explanation as to why but I presume this is so the system drains properly? And no proposal as yet though Stu said he would note my request for 45C. However he then talked about the volumiser having water at 60C!! (Seriously!) I said "oh has it an immersion then? "  He must have realised what he had said and changed the subject!

@jancold 😂 Toodles.

Posted by: @jancold

↑

will upgrade more radiators myself so I can run way cooler than 50C.

Why pay an installer company to rip you off and hide behind a grant. Then pretend they are giving you a great deal.  You can DIY an ASHP install for around £4k with a couple of new radiators, obviously more if changing them all and the plumbing.

Posted by: @johnmo

↑

Why pay an installer company to rip you off and hide behind a grant. Then pretend they are giving you a great deal.  You can DIY an ASHP install for around £4k with a couple of new radiators, obviously more if changing them all and the plumbing.

 

I would think this would be beyond the skills of most householders. My install just finished and it took them about 25 person-days and having observed what they did there is no way I could possibly have dreamed of doing this myself. You may be right that they are charging handsomely for their work, but at the moment the supply of the necessary skills is far lower than the demand, so they are naturally pricing their skills accordingly. I'm not happy about the price I paid, but the solution is a massive increase in the number of people who know how to design and fit ASHPs. I suspect it is only the likes of BG, Octopus and Aira that are going to make that happen.

@johnmo It appears you do not value expertise or experience. Do you put your own fillings in your teeth? I think not, you pay an exorbitant rate for a few pence worth of filling material and get an expert to install it 😊

It takes a lot of work to design, size, and select the correct equipment for the installation. All this has to be paid for but is unseen.

Posted by: @heacol

↑

It takes a lot of work to design, size, and select the correct equipment for the installation. All this has to be paid for but is unseen.

While what you say is true Brendon, I would agree with @johnmo,, that with a decent science background, research and a few practical diy skills, a sucessful heat pump install isnt beyond a person. this I can vouch for myself as can Glyn Hudson with his excellent youtube videos.

When you weigh that against the lottery of finding a good installer, it doesnt sound so crazy, and then if anything goes amiss in the future you are in an excellent position to sort things out yourself and save even more.

I've lost count of the money I have saved, doing the things that are normally considered outside the realms of the ordinary person and done them very successfully too as evidenced by professionals/tradesmen complementing me on them (even offering me a job!).

@jancold

However he then talked about the volumiser having water at 60C!! (Seriously!)

Lol.... he's talking nonsense. 😂

I'm looking forward to hearing about what they come up with. 

I'm still going round in a few circles comparing the Octopus radiator spec with the Centre Radiators spec from Wolsley. They don't seem to tally. It's quite possibly me getting confused so will post the two in a bit. I'm just trying to make sure there's enough wiggle room for dropping the flow temp later. 

I had top-up loft insulation installed yesterday - good -  and had trickle vents and extractor fans forced upon me - new building regs for retrofitting.... 😏

Posted by: @heacol

↑

@johnmo It appears you do not value experience or experience. Do you put your own fillings in your teeth? I think not, you pay an exorbitant rate for a few pence worth of filling material and get an expert to install it 😊

It takes a lot of work to design, size, and select the correct equipment for the installation. All this has to be paid for but is unseen.

But sorry I am not buying it. We are not talking rocket science here. Matching a heat source to heat demand isn't hard (yet many companies still oversize heat pumps a lot). Matching emitters to room heat loss isn't hard. Yes it takes some time. Piping design requires looking at and may require some fundamental changes.

But when people are being asked to pay several thousand on top of a £7500 grant, for a system that runs at 50 degrees, so the installer doesn't have to change radiators or do much in the way of piping design, it's taking the Micky.

Yes I value expertise, but it's nothing to do with filling teeth, you don't need 7 years degree level and above education, to design a domestic heating system to work at low temperatures. Compare apples with apples.

Posted by: @heacol

↑

@johnmo It appears you do not value experience or experience. Do you put your own fillings in your teeth? I think not, you pay an exorbitant rate for a few pence worth of filling material and get an expert to install it 😊

It takes a lot of work to design, size, and select the correct equipment for the installation. All this has to be paid for but is unseen.

It takes a lot of work to design a Power Station or something similar, whereas a domestic heating system is not beyond the bounds of a reasonable DIY'er, and would probably be done with greater care and attention.

After the first few systems, any decent installer should have a very good assessment of what equipment is required, without the need to spend hours in the design and specification process.

@johnmo @heacol @derek-m

Perhaps it would help to distinguish expertise from experience.  Expertise is valuable in most circumstances.  Experience is only valuable if coupled with a degree of expertise and both analytical and critical faculties, in particular the ability to be self critical and challenge the norms, particularly when technology transitions are taking place.  In the absence of these necessary complementary factors, experience is a drag on productive development.

Unfortunately the heat pump industry seems to be significantly lacking in expertise.  Of course that's a gross generalisation and there clearly are many good guys out there who have taken the time to upskill and question the practices that have become embedded, but there are far too many reports of installations which have been botched for predictable reasons, and of proposals for system designs which defy rational analysis.  

Even more unfortunately the heat pump industry has a crutch in the shape of MCS, the existence of which (in its current form) means that, so long as the design by numbers 'rules' are followed, the installer appears to be more or less bomb proof however poor the performance and overpriced the product.

If the good guys want the industry to lose its current poor reputation, they need to build expertise, eliminate the crutch, and become dominant by reputation.  

Of course there will always be DiYers who, like @johnmo (and me if I could be bothered, a position I may yet be forced into by the industry) are entirely capable of designing a system for themselves as well, if not better, than many of those currently in the industry.  The industry should embrace those, not be frightened by them.  They will contribute ideas, perform experiments, and are not in any way a threat, because they represent a small minority.  Better still they will enthusiastically advocate for the technology and, if the industry got its act in order, the industry itself.  But instead of embracing the competent DiY ers, the industry (by which I principally mean MCS) excludes them by writing planning regulations which demand MCS as a condition of PD rights!

This could, in the currently early adopter phase, be a win-win both for those who wish to and have the capability to do 'DiY', and for an emerging industry.  Sadly its currently a lose-lose.  

What is getting in the way of growing up?  Once we identify it, it needs to be massively reformed or eliminated.

Posted by: @johnmo

↑

You can DIY an ASHP install for around £4k with a couple of new radiators, obviously more if changing them all and the plumbing.

I agree. There are several heat pump DIYers here on the forums who have done an outstanding job with their ASHP installations. It’s definitely doable for some, and they’ve saved quite a lot of money in the process and have very efficient systems. However, the reality is that many people simply don’t have the required skillset or the confidence to take on such a large project. Personally, I struggle to change a kitchen tap, let alone tackle plumbing an entire heating system. 

Posted by: @jancold

↑

My octopus survey has just been completed and he has put a note on my survey that I requested a 45C design temp so they are listening? Out of interest his heat loss calc was 5.25 kW as BG was 3.46 kW! and Heatpunk gave me 4.9 Kw.

Have Octopus recommended a unit yet?