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How would you rate the design, installation and efficiency of your heat pump system? Poll is created on Nov 06, 2022

  
  
  
  
  
  

[Sticky] Rate the quality of your heat pump design and installation

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Mars
 Mars
(@editor)
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Topic starter  

@technogeek congrats on the high quality install. It’s great to read success stories. Is the installer a sole trader or a company. Would be worth recommending him.

Buy Bodge Buster – Homeowner Air Source Heat Pump Installation Guide: https://amzn.to/3NVndlU

Follow our sustainability journey at My Home Farm: https://myhomefarm.co.uk


   
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TechnoGeek
(@technogeek)
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@editor Hi Mars, he is a sole trader who has installed a system at a neighbours property including my own. As he is a sole trader I will forward details to him and if he wants to promote his business on this site (via yourself) then he can take it further 🙂  

All I need now is the price of electricity to come down and things will be peachy! 🤣 🤣 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@editor 

" A heat Pump OR an Oscillator ?"

" Four Pipe Buffer Tanks OR Volumisers"

My Heat Pump continues to Oscillate or "Short Cycle " :

4 8 10

Taking the advice from Samsung, DECC , Kensa and the MCS to fit a "50 litre Buffer Tank " :

Recommend 11
Buffer Calculation DECC 2
Buffer sizing 11
Kensa design 1
Buffer Warning !0002

My "Installer " fitted a 50 Litre Buffer Tank in October 2022.

The 50 Litre Buffer tank was fitted with a  Valve to experimentally limit Energy Consumption .

 

When selected the Buffer makes a very limited change to the oscillations.

 

I have now found that the 4 pipe Buffer Tank water Temperature differs from the Temperature of the water in the Buffer Connecting pipe:

Buffer Temperature

Clearly, the Buffer Water Temperature SHOULD be the INTEGRAL of the TEMPERATURE at the Buffer Input PORT.

It Clearly is NOT the Integral of the Water Temperature.

The Conclusion is that my Heat Pump has been fitted with a 4 pipe Buffer instead of a Volumiser!

A second conclusion is that the Volumiser SHOULD HAVE BEEN FITTED ACROSS THE OUTPUT PORTS OF THE HEAT PUMP!

My Heat Pump NEEDS a TWO PORT VOLUMISER OF 50 litre capacity fitted across the Heat Pump Output ports to Reduce these Violent Oscillations.

Given that my Oscillator Heat Pump has already cost ~£14K I have No confidence in my "installers" or the "Experts".

This post was modified 1 week ago by Mars

   
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(@iantelescope)
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" Short Cycling", Thermal-Syphoning

My Heat Pump displays "Short Cycling":

4 8 10

The Standard Solution to "Short Cycling is the use of a Buffer Tank :

Buffer sizing 11
Kensa design 1

My Buffer tank  appears to provide no solution to the Cycling Problem:

Buffer Temperature 04080948

The graph showing the Temperature Difference between my Buffer feed pipe and the Buffer Water Temperature itself!,

with DS18B20 Temperature Sensors being used to measure Water Temperature in the Buffer Tank  and the Buffer Tank feed pipe.

Notice the Buffer Water Temperature going Negative with respect to the Radiator Feed Temperature!

The Buffer appears to be dumping it's Heat Energy when the Heat Pump switches OFF

This effect , Thermal-Syphoning is shown at

https://blog.heatspring.com/2-pipe-versus-4-pipe-buffer-tank-configurations/  

with the solution to "short Cycling" being the introduction of Thermal Swing Check-Valves or Spring loaded Check-Valves.

When the Heat Pump is warmer than the Buffer the Check valve is OPEN , when, however the Buffer Tank is Hotter than the Heat Pump the Valve closes.

The Thermal efficiency should be improved with the introduction of "Swing Check Valves between the buffer and the Heat Pump and Spring loaded Check valves between the Buffer and the load.

Two Port OR Four Port Tanks?

Two Port Buffer Tanks are used extensively in Europe while the USA prefers the use of Four Port Buffer Tanks.

"Black Pipe Water "?

Both TWO PORT & Four Port  Buffer Tanks store Black Particulates  on to the floor of the Buffer tank, requiring removal by pressure cleaning.

The Short Cycling itself tends to exacerbate the "Black Ink" Problem as shown in the BS7593:2019 .

This post was modified 1 week ago by Mars

   
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(@derek-m)
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@iantelescope

Quite some time ago it was pointed out that because your system has a buffer tank and a plate heat exchanger, that it could not work efficiently.

Since you ignored the advice provided at the time, your system will continue to work inefficiently and short cycle until you resolve these problems. I'm afraid continually posting on the forum will not resolve these problems.


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@editor

Attacking other "experts"  Does NOT inspire confidence!

Heat Pump Thermal-Syphoning

My Samsung 5kW Heat  Pump , now in it's second Spring Season  of "Short Cycling" shows every sign of destroying itself!

With Spring Weather my Heat Pump, like many others, cannot reduce it's power below it's minimum Inverter power of 2.5 Kw, and oscillates :

power

My Samsung 5kw Heat Pump is inefficient with a current loss of 26% of Energy:

LOSSES APR 24

The NIC having STRUCK_OFF my "Installer" now says that " You are NOT GOING to like this ............but Nothing CAN be DONE!!"

The Heat Pump , fitted with a 50 Litre Buffer , continues to exhibit "Thermal-Syphoning " :

Buffer Temperature 04090812

with a negative -10/-15 C Temperature Drop between the Buffer output Pipe and the Buffer Water Temperature itself!

This is Thermal -Syphoning, the dumping of energy stored within the Buffer back into the Heat Pump itself.

This Thermal -Syphoning is used by the Heat Pump during de-icing.

The Buffer was originally to be fitted by SAMSUNG-DALLIAM to fix another problem ............. DE-icing  !!

Having Spent circa £14K on the Heat Pump I have neither confidence nor money!

Many "engineers"  and "experts" have now inspected my Heat Pump .......but none have inspired confidence!

Many "experts" have voiced their opinions , usually completely contrary to each other!

Attacking other "experts"  Does NOT inspire confidence!

This post was modified 1 week ago by Mars

   
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(@jamespa)
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@derek-m @iantelescope @editor

I am probably making a mistake wading into this but...

Sometimes in life bad things happen, its a fact. 

In this case it appears that @iantelescope has a bad experience with his heat pump.  As the 'victim' of bad things one has a choice.  Accept it, however unfortunate, and try to do something about it (if necessary trying several things until one of them works), or forever suffer from it. 

The former has the distinct advantage that you regain some level of control and hope, the latter cedes all control and hope to others (or nobody if there is nobody who cares).  Obviously there are times when the former is literally impossible, such as if the bad thing is fatal, but some poor building work is unlikely to be one of those times.  In this particular case I would argue that the way out (if there is a way out), is to accept it and try to do something about it. 

The options involving 'the industry' stepping in, admitting responsibility, and fixing it seem (sadly) to have been exhausted.  That's a pity, but appears to be a fact.  Fortunately there are communities of people, who have no vested interest, yet are willing to offer advice.  Furthermore, unlike many 'experts' in the industry, they are willing to explain their reasoning.  This is important because it exposes their suggestions to peer review, and allows you to judge what you do believe and what you don't. 

This being the case the only remaining 'do something' option appears to be to try what the community has suggested and peer-reviewed.  If this is, for any reason not acceptable, then 'forever suffering from it' appears to be the inevitable result.  Put simply, if you don't change something then nothing will change.

If I were in the position that @iantelescope is in, then I think I would listen to the community, on the grounds that the alternative appears to be too depressing to contemplate.  I have done this many times with software that doesn't perform as one might expect it to do (I admit its a lesser problem, but the same principle). 

Of course its entirely a personal choice how to proceed.  However, if doing nothing is the direction of choice, then it is perhaps a bit unfair on the community who is trying to help not (a) to declare that the intent is to do nothing, so that the community knows that offering suggestions is pointless and (b) to continue raising the issue when there are many other problems that the community is trying to solve and where action might actually occur.

I acknowledge that the above is, in essence, a long winded way of saying what @derek-m said above, but perhaps it explains some of the thought processes that are going through my head in relation to this knotty problem. 

 

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@jamespa 

 

I must apologise to yourself for my Scottish Scepticism.

Many thanks James, Believe me when I say I Appreciate  your response .

Some of the Correspondents on this site seem intent on derision , merely generating paranoia by their Very tone..........very Twitter or "X " like !

My last confrontation with my , now former "installer " and an Engineer from the NIC finished with the "Experts" leaving with my Heat Pump completely inoperative, issuing numerous Warnings . I later successfully undid the "experts" settings.

My previous confrontation was with a French SAMSUNG Engineer who left,  later producing a "secret" Report only shown to my then "installer".

The "Secret  Report" was briefly shown before being spirited away by my "installer " literally when my back was turned!

Apparently you cannot have the customer understanding his Heat Pump problems!

These confrontations follow a sequence of  "discoveries " where my "installer" failed to install a Flow Switch (Four times!) ,Expansion vessel , PRV , Thermostat and  Buffer .........on and on. Confidence in "my Installer" , SAMSUNG-DALLIAM and NIC Completely destroyed!

Two years of this have completely destroyed any confidence in this industry ...........However, I must apologise to yourself for my Scottish Scepticism.

My final plea is for some appreciation of the statement from the NIC :

" You are NOT Going to like This ........................................But Nothing Can be Done for your Heat Pump!".

This statement follows many previous Verbal statements from the NIC that :

" If All else fails ...........the NIC will repair and Replace the Heat Pump!".

As a matter of interest have a look at the presentation in the Book :

Modern Hydronic Heating & Cooling by John Siegenthaler

This is How to teach about Heat Pumps . Loads of Diagrams  Heat  equations , numbers , confidence.

This post was modified 1 week ago by Mars

   
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(@jamespa)
Noble Member Member
4065 kWhs
Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 683
 

Posted by: @iantelescope

Apparently you cannot have the customer understanding his Heat Pump problems!

That attitude isn't unique to heat pumps, many tradesmen exhibit it.  The number of times I have either been told that it's 'complex' or simply given a load of BS, is too large to count.

It makes my blood boil.  Internally my reaction is always the same - if you can't explain it to me, then obviously you don't actually understand it.  Sometimes I will say this out loud, most often I will just tell them to go away.  The people who actually understand things can explain them to any reasonably intelligent person, the rest are just chancers.

This post was modified 6 days ago by JamesPa

   
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Toodles
(@toodles)
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@jamespa When I had the heat pump installed and later, when a second Powerwall was added to the existing setup by the the same teams, I frequently came across comments relating to my desire to know the technical details. One said to me; ‘I’m not trying to be funny but we come across customers much younger than yourself who don’t have the technical understanding to ask the questions you have!’ I found that the leaders of the teams (both electrical and plumbing) were only too pleased to be asked about their installation work. I also spent a fair amount of time with the MD of the company discussing various aspects of the installation - he listened, he answered and where necessary made the changes I requested.

This is fine in a way but, what happens when a customer does not know enough about what is required and has little interest in doing so but wants to just ‘Leave it to the Experts’?  They may be even less inclined to want to carry out any investigating to ensure their system is optimised for them. Yes a good installer should ensure that this is a satisfactory situation and the heating system will require minimal attention from the householder - it should just work … and work well.

I think that most readers of the RHH are similar to myself, and many like me will have had a good experience; there are unfortunately, others who have not. Again, if we are to believe the MCS blurb, we are all concerned unnecessarily!😉 Regards, Toodles. (Cloud Cuckoo Land costs extra Luv) 

Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!


   
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