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How would you rate the design, installation and efficiency of your heat pump system? Poll is created on Nov 06, 2022

  
  
  
  
  
  

[Sticky] Rate the quality of your heat pump design and installation

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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @elton

Posted by: @elton

The installer seems to be gaining some national notoriety. See from 22:50 onwards. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001vnfx/rip-off-britain-series-15-40-my-house-is-a-building-site  

And good Lord, I just took a look at their Trust Pilot feedback, wish I hadn't! Some quite distressed individuals.

Just seen from some posts online that this outfit - Greener Living - is apparently closing or have closed. Anyone know any more about this? "UK's number 1 heat pump installer". Judging by their feedback, not a great surprise if it turns out they've fallen... or been pushed!

 

Or maybe just in the process of changing the company name?

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@mars

Hi ,

Sorry to do another Viktor Meldrew impersonation , but, to cool myself down I have been devising other tests for my "Short cycling "problem.

My Heat demonstrates remarkable "Short Cycling2 shown in the terrifying graph of Heat Pump power, Kw....

2178

In trying to measure , and quantify the extent of "Short Cycling" I have taken the Fast Fourier Transform, FFT of the Heat Pump Power

3 2 00

The FFT shows Power in each sine wave component ,  as a function of Frequency......

With the FFT ,"Short cycling" is shown in the  peak at 150 Hz with the First Harmonic shown in the second peak at 300 Hz . The Succession of Peaks at regular intervals confirms the Square wave nature of " Short Cycling".

This restrains and contains  my anger with the performance of this Heat Pump , now ( March 2024) only heating one room , and that with the aid of a 1.5 kW Electric fire!!

I have, needless to say , no hot water!

ian

 

 

 

 

 


   
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(@elton)
Trusted Member Member
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Posts: 36
 

Posted by: @derek-m

Posted by: @elton

Posted by: @elton

The installer seems to be gaining some national notoriety. See from 22:50 onwards. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001vnfx/rip-off-britain-series-15-40-my-house-is-a-building-site  

And good Lord, I just took a look at their Trust Pilot feedback, wish I hadn't! Some quite distressed individuals.

Just seen from some posts online that this outfit - Greener Living - is apparently closing or have closed. Anyone know any more about this? "UK's number 1 heat pump installer". Judging by their feedback, not a great surprise if it turns out they've fallen... or been pushed!

 

Or maybe just in the process of changing the company name?

 

Possibly both. From the sounds of things customers with installation issues are feeling left massively in the lurch & unable to contact them on their office number so there's no sense this is a name change with continuity. Greener Living seems to have gone. Whether they try to start under another name... and take responsibility for all those botched installs under any new name.. remains to be seen.

 


   
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(@derek-m)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 4168
 

Posted by: @iantelescope

@mars

Hi ,

Sorry to do another Viktor Meldrew impersonation , but, to cool myself down I have been devising other tests for my "Short cycling "problem.

My Heat demonstrates remarkable "Short Cycling2 shown in the terrifying graph of Heat Pump power, Kw....

2178

In trying to measure , and quantify the extent of "Short Cycling" I have taken the Fast Fourier Transform, FFT of the Heat Pump Power

3 2 00

The FFT shows Power in each sine wave component ,  as a function of Frequency......

With the FFT ,"Short cycling" is shown in the  peak at 150 Hz with the First Harmonic shown in the second peak at 300 Hz . The Succession of Peaks at regular intervals confirms the Square wave nature of " Short Cycling".

This restrains and contains  my anger with the performance of this Heat Pump , now ( March 2024) only heating one room , and that with the aid of a 1.5 kW Electric fire!!

I have, needless to say , no hot water!

ian

 

 

 

 

 

I am far from surprised that your heat pump is short cycling when being used to heat just one room, particularly if you also have a 1.5kW electric heater operating. Not the most efficient use of electrical energy.

I would respectfully suggest that you go back to a gas or oil fired heating system, which you may hopefully know how to operate correctly.

 


   
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(@jamespa)
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 700
 

Posted by: @derek-m

Posted by: @iantelescope

@mars

Hi ,

Sorry to do another Viktor Meldrew impersonation , but, to cool myself down I have been devising other tests for my "Short cycling "problem.

My Heat demonstrates remarkable "Short Cycling2 shown in the terrifying graph of Heat Pump power, Kw....

-- Attachment is not available --

In trying to measure , and quantify the extent of "Short Cycling" I have taken the Fast Fourier Transform, FFT of the Heat Pump Power

-- Attachment is not available --

The FFT shows Power in each sine wave component ,  as a function of Frequency......

With the FFT ,"Short cycling" is shown in the  peak at 150 Hz with the First Harmonic shown in the second peak at 300 Hz . The Succession of Peaks at regular intervals confirms the Square wave nature of " Short Cycling".

This restrains and contains  my anger with the performance of this Heat Pump , now ( March 2024) only heating one room , and that with the aid of a 1.5 kW Electric fire!!

I have, needless to say , no hot water!

ian

 

 

 

 

 

I am far from surprised that your heat pump is short cycling when being used to heat just one room, particularly if you also have a 1.5kW electric heater operating. Not the most efficient use of electrical energy.

I would respectfully suggest that you go back to a gas or oil fired heating system, which you may hopefully know how to operate correctly.

 

I suspect that even a typical (ie well oversized) gas boiler might struggle to cope efficiently with this, it would most likely be short cycling appallingly with the vast majority of the heat disappearing up the flue.  There is a reason central heating is so called.

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 198
 

@jamespa @derek-m @mars

Hi all,

The Design and selection of my Heat Pump

I received three different Quotes for the installation of a Heat Pump .

All three quotes selected a Heat pump on the basis of a house energy survey. 

The Power required was specified at between 6.5 Kw and 8.3 Kw.

 

The installed Samsung Heat Pump

My Selected "installer" , originally quoting for a 6.5 Kw "Warm-flow" heat Pump actually installed a 5 Kw Samsung Heat Pump.

 

My Samsung Heat Pump

My Samsung Heat Pump has a Digital inverter with a power of 5kw.

 

Short Cycling

The Minimum power that my Heat Pump  inverter can supply is 2.5 kw.

When asked to supply less than2.5 Kw the Heat pump controls the power by varying the width of a power pulse within a cycle.

Operating below the 2.5 Kw threshold is "Short Cycling".

2178

Short cycling is caused by the reduced demand for power when the Water Temperature exceeds the Set Temperature of the Water Law Thermostat.

The Short cycling period is determined by the Volume of water in the pipes with the addition of a Buffer tank.

 

Need for additional, back up , heat source in winter

The notional power of the Samsung Heat Pump drops from 5Kw to 4.3 Kw ( Samsung's French estimate ) when the outside temperature drops below +3 C.

The Samsung output COP drops below to 2.8 when the outdoor temperature drops below +3 C.

COP REAL COP 11 03 24

Because of a 24% loss of energy across the pipes and tank the available winter power drops to 3.2 Kw.

The REAL COP , that derived from the ratio of the Energy Available to my house divided by the Energy consumed drops to  2.0.

The 3.2 kw supplied at the start of the pipe Radiator Water circuit is reduced by an unknown amount, I estimate a loss of circa 20%, giving the available power available circa 2.5 Kw.

Now , 2.5 Kw is perilously close to the Power required to heat my living room, see below , 1.9 Kw.

As with many others , I will , sometimes, need a backup source of heat during winter.

 

The Power consumption of  my Living Room.

As you know I have measured the Actual losses within my Living room. (Note , not the U values taken from a book.)

My measured  Thermal conductance for  my Living room is circa 78 W per degree C.

Given that I need a indoor temperature of circa 21 C when the outdoor temperature is -3 C , the Temperature Difference is 24 C .

Therefore, the power required to heat my Living Room is 78 X 24 = 1.9 Kw.

 

The Electricity Bill

In December 2021 my Gas Boiler consumed some 1063 Kwh of Energy.

In December 2022 my Samsung Heat Pump consumed circa 662 Kwh.

Appreciating and allowing for  all the annual differences  the REAL Cop  ~~ 1063/662 = 1.6 .

 

In December 2021 my Gas Boiler consumed some 1063 Kwh of Energy.

In December 2023 my Samsung Heat Pump consumed circa 626 Kwh.

Appreciating and allowing for all the annual differences  the REAL Cop  ~~ 1063/626 = 1.7

 

My Measured REAL COP , on the basis of my measurements is ~~ 2.0 .

Gas Supply

My Gas Boiler and Gas supply was stripped out at a cost, to me of £922.80.

I cannot return to gas.

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by Mars

   
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(@jamespa)
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 700
 

Thanks, thats really helpful.  Please forgive me if I don’t remember everything you have previously posted, whilst I ask some questions in the hope that I can be of help

 "The Power required was specified at between 6.5 Kw and 8.3 Kw."

(comment) This is actually a pretty close set of estimates = good

> What was the design Outside Air Temperature?

> Do you have any corroborating evidence eg annual gas/oil consumption/smart meter readings?

My Samsung Heat Pump has a Digital inverter with a power of 5kw.

>Which model is it precisely?

>Please post a system diagram?

If you can answer these questions it should be possible to give some advice.  Whether you choose to follow it is up to you!

This post was modified 2 months ago by Mars

   
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 Gary
(@gary)
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Not rating my own system but had a visit from a heat geek the other day I asked if he was coming to a new install what heat pumps would he install.  He only installs 2 brands  Vaillant for a single heat pump and NIBE if you need more than one.  Vaillant for level of modulation and control, NIBE because their systems work best when its multiple units.

Anything else he classed as substandard as it was based on manufacturer's transferring air to air software to air to water rather than starting from the beginning hence the lack of modulation.

In saying that any of the 'other' brands would work well enough in a good design but as we all know most aren't.


   
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Toodles
(@toodles)
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@gary What factors would be used to ascertain if a system ‘works best’? Factors that come to mind that I can think of include efficiency (COP?) reliability, noise levels, size … what else please? Regards, Toodles.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Toodles

Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!


   
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 Gary
(@gary)
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It was specifically how the 2 units work together in tandem if you look at urban plumbers recent video he installs 2 NIBEs for the first time 


   
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Toodles
(@toodles)
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@gary And if they install a single unit, what factors influence them then? Toodles.

Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!


   
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TechnoGeek
(@technogeek)
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I had my heat pump fitted July 2023 by a local heating engineer who has been specialising in renewables for possibly a decade.

My installation was an add on to my existing oil fired system with 15mm piping 7x old 1970's / 80's single panel radiators, 1x large double 1970 panel rad and a couple of modern towel rails, to create a bivalent arrangement (oil boiler is less than 5 years old and not ready for the scrap). We had one new radiator installed in the kitchen as part of the work but that was due to a recent kitchen refurb and my Wifes desire to have a nicer looking rad to suit the kitchen fittings.

My engineer came around and did a full heat loss survey, calculating every room to come up with a suitable total value of 10Kwh @ OAT -2C. I could confirm this was in the right ball park as I use roughly 1 litre oil per hour (via oil meter) when its sub zero outside.

He also listened to my desires of putting a high temperature heat pump in and recommended the  Samsung 12Kw Quiet model.

All work was planned regards heat pump position, piping etc and he gave me a list of the items of work I needed to get carried out before he could start, e.g concrete plinth and suitable power supplies to the installation site.

The pump and radiator was fitted in two days and I was given a reasonably detailed presentation of the controls and technology.

I rated my fitting "very pleased" because the oudoor unit kept tripping requiring an investigation. However the reason for the electrical tripping was not actually down to my heating engineer but the electrician who installed the 32A line. This should have had its own MCB not be sharing with any other circuitry. Once corrected I have had no more issues.

My experience with the pump has been excellent and not once over the winter have my Wife and I felt cold (except in the early days when setting the heat curve), the house has managed to reach its set temp of 21 C with a fallback of 18.5C at night. The pump operates with a flow temp of between 35C and 46C most of the time.

Once I was happy with the system set up I reintroduced the oil boiler back in. This now operates with an OAT 5C or less purely from a running cost point of view. Over time this temperature threshold can be adjusted depending on oil and electricity prices with the hope I can one day switch the oil boiler off permanently!

I was a little concerned retrofitting a heat pump to old radiators but my engineer had little concern because of the way sizing calculations were done in the those days i.e adding 50% was common practise which actually worked in my favour.

I have since expanded my knowledge even further from this forum, HeatGeeks videos and trawling the web. The only downside for knowing more about the subject is it has exposed to me how oversized my oil boiler is for my property (fitted by another company 5 years ago). It is 26 Kw, 2.5 times bigger than it needs to be!! It is now set to its absolute minimum of 65C and still heats the house to 21C at an OAT of -5C.

After reading some of the painful stories written by a few unlucky people, I feel very blessed and fortunate that I have such a skilled company on my doorstep. I have realised the quality of the planning, design and fitting of these systems is absolute key to a good customer experience. I also believe this is the main reason for the very obvious reluctance of people to adopt the technology in the UK due the high levels of bad press surrounding peoples bad experiences of cold houses and high running costs after installing a heat pump from a poorly trained heating company.


   
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