@editor - well done for posting this. Manufacturer/installer ping-pong is as you say nothing new, even if unacceptable, but actual legal threats of gagging orders or just the chilling effect of warranty toast takes things to new depths. Like you, I hope it is just a few bad apples, but I fear it may not be. I do encourage anyone with a bad experience to get in touch with Mars (editor@renewableheatinghub.co.uk) who will I am sure treat anything in absolute confidence unless and until you say otherwise.  

@editor , Mars I think this is very important issue, because I think the manufacturers are ducking issues. The resolution foundation is holding an interactive session, both in person and online about the further rollout of heat pumps and I thought that might be a platform for raising a number of issues, the issues you raise above, plus the problem with maintenance, that has been discussed elsewhere in the forums here, the issue of installation quality. Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is the link and you can register for the webinar. Questions can be asked/ posed.

Posted by: @cathoderay

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I do encourage anyone with a bad experience to get in touch with Mars (editor@renewableheatinghub.co.uk) who will I am sure treat anything in absolute confidence unless and until you say otherwise.

Spot on. Last month, a homeowner booked a consultation with me, and after following my advice and guidance, I’m pleased to say they reached a successful resolution. Today, they informed me that the heat pump manufacturer they were having issues with (one of the biggest players no less) agreed to settle, offering £4,200 and removing the unit. The homeowner has since replaced it with a different brand.

That's troubling to hear. This is very not our own approach at Firepower, nor our experience with heat pump manufacturers at all. In general when there are issues we, as distributor, liaise with the homeowner, installer, and manufacturer to get to a resolution. The aim of all our businesses is to help people get cosy homes, a system that works like it should, and a reduction in co2 emissions.

Attempting to silence people rather than dealing with issues when they arise, and trying to make sure they don't happen for other customers, is a ridiculous approach, and in the long term would act as negative marketing, and a process that doesn't constantly improve. It would also be emotionally and ethically lacking.

@sune spot on. I think I was more perturbed that it was the manufacturers that were initiating these legal 'threats'.

This is sad to hear and should not happen, to give you some balance and the perspective from a designer and installers point of view, we all know there can be nightmare jobs but in my experience  these thing don't go wrong often but when they do there are several safety mechanisms. To start, the customer should be covered by a workmanship warranty and I am not talking about the insurance we are all made to purchase incase we go bust but that fact that in writing within a contract we have stated a reasonable efficiency for a reasonable output and to warrant this for 2 years. As installers signing up to multiple QMS's MCS, APHC, Napit, design softwares and special insurances on top we also sign up to a code of conduct which I am sure most adhere to.

There are mediation services and other kinds of support but from what I have been reading for the last few months none of this seems to work at all?

Perhaps some things will get better in the future and for now we band together to get through the teething problems.

In my view, if by some chance we managed to under design an ASHP capacity we would change this under warranty without delay and wrapped up in an apology. If the system needed a second power flush we would not be precious about it we would flush, if flow problems appeared we would attend and resolve and if power issues happened or the electricians wired up the UFH we would blame them for everything haha (jokes) but we would fix it ourselves.

Example real job just finished:

Full refit and house extension, new everything UFH, bathrooms, water pipework ASHP, cylinder, whole house electrics and controls:

Our remit under contract: supply, fit ASHP, cylinder and ASHP controls only 

Their Plumber:- all plumbing past the cylinder, UFH, controls + bathrooms 

Electrician:- all electrical works

What we completed: ASHP and Cylinder but we also helped with the UFH wiring, secondary return loop control, bathroom flow setting and heat guard control, central heating control we removed it, seasonal commissioning, yes we attend 3 times in 1 year to tweak the system as its hard to commission when outside is 15 deg C. If your suppler gives you this level of service it simply will not go wrong, just a fact. By doing all of this extra work which by the way cost us about half a day so say £300 it saved us recalls, warranty issues and we know it works from the ASHP, through the UFH and right up to the 42 Deg C coming out of the bath taps, no one can blame the poor ASHP for any of it. By helping with these items we know every that touches the ASHP works in harmony with it. 

There are 3 problems with this industry when it goes wrong: 1 fit like a boiler and run will never work, 2 design is everything get it right or as close as you can, 3 commissioning is almost always going to be what let you down if you cut it short or turn on and walk away then hope it works, commissioning takes 1 full day not less and not often more. Slow and steady take all day.  

Best installer's out there have a passion for their brands and their designs, if your looking for a heat pump look for the company that loves their work, at least they care enough that they want it to work as near to perfect as it can. If you cant get it fixed and you have exhausted every avenue look for an ASHP company that will love your system that someone else installed and help you take care of it. 

Experts say it is nearly always its about the design and the commissioning where most HP work well in the right setting.

This is completely wild. @editor I understand that there are ongoing legal issues surrounding the 'silencing' case, but I believe it's your duty to name and shame the manufacturer, so that others can make an informed opinion of them.

@ectoplasmosis I’ve never had an issue naming and shaming when it’s warranted, and I’ve done so on this site, the podcast and elsewhere. However, this is a delicate situation where I have to tread carefully. The cases I’ve mentioned were shared with me in confidence, and in one instance (with my assistance), the homeowner secured a settlement with the manufacturer despite legal threats. However, they were required to sign an NDA, so anything I say could jeopardise their agreement. That said, I’m keeping a very close eye on two brands, and when they slip up, I won’t hesitate to call them out.

I think this is a very important topic and do think this is also relevant to.... yes... noise.

The environment is one from a manufacturer perspective where every issue is a "myth myth myth", and 600,000 heat pumps installs to be achieved with no prisoners taken. Every constructive criticism about rollout is myth, every constructive criticism about heat pump tech a myth and by association every issue raised by consumers is fair game to be treated as... a myth.

You mention manufacturers citing the "install". The only too often heard idea that every issue is simply down to a "bad install" is a truly awful dodge that is designed to blame the fallible man-with-spanner rather than the tech, because the tech is always perfect.

In my view this troubling pattern is tied into this. There can be no problems with heat pumps or installs - woe betide those who say otherwise. Any BBC or other report on such things (there was one the other week on a dodgy installer allowed to get away with it for years) is labelled as anti-heat pump propaganda. Took a lot of bravery for the BBC to even dare to run a non-gleaming article related to heat pumps in the first place.

In this environment - where genuine issues are suppressed & lumped in with Net Zero Watch rather than acknowledged and addressed - it is inevitable that this pattern will emerge. 

Fixable, but requires the echo chamber to be challenged.

Posted by: @elton

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In this environment - where genuine issues are suppressed & lumped in with Net Zero Watch rather than acknowledged and addressed - it is inevitable that this pattern will emerge. 

Fixable, but requires the echo chamber to be challenged.

I would actually (and reluctantly) challenge the assertion that its fixable (it can probably be improved however).

There are rogue traders throughout the whole of the construction industry, and have been for as long as I remember.  They are frequently called out but never completely fixed.  I fell foul of one myself and ended up paying a considerable amount of money for a failed roof.  I can see no reason to suppose heat pumps, or boilers, or indeed anything else to do with construction, is likely in the near future to be exempt from these issues.  There are of course also many good guys.

The best we can realistically hope for, at least for now, is a heat pump industry that is roughly as bad/as good as the gas boiler industry - which for decades has been turning up flow temperatures to maximum in order to avoid call outs with the result that many, possibly most, of us, have paid 10% more for our heating for decades than we needed to.  In fact it still does, I still hear tales from people who have seen the light and turned their flow temperature down, only to find that when the gas boiler is serviced the service person whacks it up again.

Im not sure what that translates to in terms of heat pump installs, but it certainly does not translate to (a realistic expectation of) perfection.  In other words the question to ask IMHO (if the objective is to judge the heat pump industry vs other heating technologies) is (very sadly) what percentage of heat pump installs go wrong and how does that compare with other building or heating endeavours.  I don't actually know, but neither have I seen any evidence that its a particularly large percentage. 

That absolutely doesn't excuse the failures of course, but perhaps positions them as part of a much wider malaise which has deeper roots and afflicts many other areas.  In the same way as it (may) suit those who follow the science to deny or downplay these failures, it certainly suits those for whom the science is an inconvenient truth to emphasise them and imply that they are somehow technology specific.

The real message to me for many years has been 'avoid any building work if you possibly can because it seems to attract a large number of chancers'.  Unfortunately that's not always possible. 

I should stress that I have no connection (other than being a customer) with the heat pump industry in particular or the heating industry in general.

Caveat Emptor reigns supreme.