Hi!

Just an update on my conversation with Smart Heating ahead of the job this summer.

I asked them if, in the event I choose to stay with Octopus, the monitoring tech installed by them would be compatible with that provider (or any other provider for that matter).

They replied that he monitoring system is fully integrated within the Vaillant package and can be accessed via the controller and the app. It's also compatible with all electric tariffs. They also added that recently started offering a new service through Havenwise — an automated software platform that connects with the Vaillant internet gateway. It allows remote access to system’s controls and settings to optimise performance for both comfort and efficiency. It also integrates with time-of-use tariffs to automatically make the most of off-peak rates for hot water production. Not clear if this is extra money on me but I suppose this would be something worth consideration and wanted to hear people's opinion. Anyone owning this already?

Thanks! 🖐️ 

Posted by: @eliuccio

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Not clear if this is extra money on me but I suppose this would be something worth consideration and wanted to hear people's opinion.

They won't be giving it away, so you will pay for the kit, install and configuration. You may also pay an annual fee to get access to services. It's similar to Homely, read that thread also.

If running straight WC, would it add value to you?

@johnmo I have been already advised to install homely before on this very thread and I guess most people have some form of intelligent control. Reading a little in the forum and online it seems that havenwise performance is outstanding. I asked to send further details and I'll assess...Cheers!

Posted by: @eliuccio

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@johnmo I have been already advised to install homely before on this very thread and I guess most people have some form of intelligent control. Reading a little in the forum and online it seems that havenwise performance is outstanding. I asked to send further details and I'll assess...Cheers!

Havenwise is (or at least was when I spoke with them about 6 months ago) an online only service, no hardware required (other than an internet connection for a compatible heat pump).  The quoted me gbp50 per annum.

Homely requires hardware and is hybrid as I understand it, with some parts of the service being delivered foc locally, others foc remotely, and yet more subscription based.

Last time I checked homely doesn't support Vaillant, have wise does, but these things change 

If you end up with Vaillant I would first decide, based on a month or two experience, if you actually need any add ons.  The controller is, imho, one of its strengths and allows you to do a lot quite easily out of the box.  That said if you want to use octopus agile I would definitely suggest exploring havenwise unless coding is your thing. 

Samsung heat pump controllers aren't so comprehensive in their facilities and many report that homely compensates for this and much more 

The guys at Havenwise have knocked it out the park. Everyone I speak to that has installed Havenwise is extremely pleased with how well it's optimising their system, so well done to @hcas and his team for making this product.

As an aside, I'll be interviewing them at Installer in a month's time to get an update, but £50/year (which is the still the price) is ridiculously good value for the performance they're extracting from your heat pump. 

@jamespa the crucial point is whether havenwise does what it says, which is cutting down the energy bill via their AI driven system. If so the subscription cost would be offset and I would eventually save money too. The tariff I am thinking of using is

https://octopus.energy/smart/intelligent-octopus-flux/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=typefrom&utm_campaign=smart-tariffs

I am already on flux, so this one should give the extra advantage of combining, solar, HP, and battery.

Posted by: @eliuccio

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@johnmo I have been already advised to install homely before on this very thread and I guess most people have some form of intelligent control. Reading a little in the forum and online it seems that havenwise performance is outstanding. I asked to send further details and I'll assess...Cheers!

@eliuccio, just to clarify a couple of points...

Firstly, I've reread this thread and the advice to install Homely was largely for the convenience their better user interface gives compared with Samsung (albeit a few people like Samsung's offering). That's not to say there isn't potentially a financial benefit too, but the suggestions certainly haven't pushed Homely as a must-have.

Secondly, whilst many people have some form of intelligent control system a lot use it just for monitoring and far fewer actually use it to actually control. That's because by far the most important part here is to get a system designed and installed that will work efficiently in the first place. If that's done successfully then any intelligent control is only really tweaking a good system further - as it should. No intelligent control system can compensate for a badly specified and/or designed system.

Thirdly, as @jamespa rightly mentioned, the way Homely interacts with a heat pump (a two-wire cable and the use of a protocol called modbus being spoken over that cable) is incompatible with the way Vaillant do things (I believe they standardised on canbus instead of modbus but I'm happy to be corrected) so the combination of Vaillant and Homely is a complete non-starter. Havenwise, on the other hand, links in with a heat pump manufacturer's cloud-based way of adjusting settings so that as far as the manufacturer and the heat pump can see it it's just like someone's being very busy with a smartphone app. This makes it much easier for Havenwise to be compatible with a wide range of manufacturers and the only downside is that if your Internet connection goes down for a while nothing Havenwise tells the heat pump to do will have any effect.

All that said, as @editor says Havenwise's flavour of "tweaking a good system further" appears to be returning savings that significantly outstrip the yearly cost of their service. It may also be the case with Homely (if you were to decide against a Vaillant, which seems unlikely now) although Homely's reluctance to allow users to see their own heat pump's operating stats makes it difficult for users to judge how effective Homely's tweaking is unless they play games.

Posted by: @eliuccio

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the crucial point is whether havenwise does what it says, which is cutting down the energy bill via their AI driven system.

To determine if it reduces bills you need a starting point - which is run without an add on system. Then you can compare. Otherwise you are taking their word for it.

If the AI driven system just says go to a higher set point and room temperature when energy is cheaper, a simple thermostat can do that. For example I can only get E7 or standard rate. So a simple thermostat is used to run an elevated temp curve in cheap periods, then revert back to normal curve in expensive periods.

Not sure you need the power of AI to do that. My thermostat was cheaper than the annual fee. I do a similar this with a Shelly relay when I have excess PV. Feb to date spent next to nothing heating or cooling.

Posted by: @Anonymous

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Posted by: @eliuccio

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the crucial point is whether havenwise does what it says, which is cutting down the energy bill via their AI driven system.

To determine if it reduces bills you need a starting point - which is run without an add on system. Then you can compare. Otherwise you are taking their word for it.

If the AI driven system just says go to a higher set point and room temperature when energy is cheaper, a simple thermostat can do that. For example I can only get E7 or standard rate. So a simple thermostat is used to run an elevated temp curve in cheap periods, then revert back to normal curve in expensive periods.

Not sure you need the power of AI to do that. My thermostat was cheaper than the annual fee. I do a similar this with a Shelly relay when I have excess PV. Feb to date spent next to nothing heating or cooling.

In principle I agree, @johnmo, but with provisos.

There is plenty of evidence that driving your car like a boy racer with either your accelerator or brake fully depressed is inefficient. You don't need to build up a body of your own data before you start using some reasonable defaults. If Havenwise was a complete unknown then I agree you'd have to carry out your tests independently because no-one wants to believe a company's own marketing unverified. However, now Havenwise have been around for a bit there are plenty of other users who can provide their own independent viewpoints, so using that service from the get-go doesn't mean you're taking Havenwise's word for it; you're taking Havenwise's customers' words for it.

Similarly, you say yourself you're limited to a two-rate tariff which gives little scope for intelligent control. That definitely puts you in the minority of consumers so it's probably unsafe to extrapolate your circumstances to cover the population in general. 

I am excited to update you on my heat pump installation. This has finally been commissioned today. Works started Monday morning, the 25th.

I took a couple of pictures of the pump and the cylinder. I am not showing the loft with the piping and wiring to the volumiser nor the radiators.

My feeling is that work has been done properly and the Smart Heating ltd Head said that the water is flowing with max efficiency. Micro-bubbles will still be to be dissolved over time.

He walked me through the Vaillant app and the  sensocomfort controller (this has been a slight disappointment because I was on the impression that they were going to plug Havenwise based on their previous comms but this was an office mistake - he told me Heat Geek does not provide Havenwise whereas they provide it to customers outside this scheme...).

I have currently set the target room temp at 18 and the hot water at 45 degrees C.

Any comments/questions are welcome.

Thanks for your support and help.

Enjoy the weekend!

Delighted to hear this went well.  It looks very neat

The only comment I would make about the installation is that pipework within 1m of the DHW tank should be insulated - unless (like me) you instructed them not to do so (I wanted an airing cupboard)

Posted by: @eliuccio

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I have currently set the target room temp at 18 and the hot water at 45 degrees C.

 

Once the heating season starts I would suggest you operate initially in pure weather compensation mode, any/all TRVs and thermostats turned to maximum, and the set temperature on the sensocomfort set to your target temperature (in pure WC mode all this does is set an offset to the WC, it doesn't actually react to the room temperature) and heat pump operating 24*7. 

Then, in the installer menu on the sensocomfort, or in the advanced menu on the app, over a period of days gradually reduce the slope of the WC curve until the house is just at the right temperature.  This will optimise the WC settings.  You may need to tweak at the height of the season but, once you have done so, that should be it.  The Vaillant interface makes this especially easy.  Most likely you can leave it like this and enjoy.

Alternatively if you want Havenwise, I think its £50 per annum with a 6 month free trial (ie pretty much a whole season).  No hardware is needed other than the Vaillant WiFi interface.  I don'[t personally use it because I seem to get good performance just operating my Vaillant totally open loop on WC, but I am conscious I may be missing out!

Posted by: @eliuccio

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My feeling is that work has been done properly and the Smart Heating ltd Head said that the water is flowing with max efficiency. Micro-bubbles will still be to be dissolved over time.

Mine took about a month.  There was one radiator that I had to bleed every few days because, for some reason, the bubbles collected there.

Do give some thought to tarrifs, you can do much better than the standard ones.  For me EON Next Drive works out well because I have an EV (although they dont check), my heat pump consumption averages about 19p (standrad tarrif 25p) and its simple.  For more complex tarriffs Havenwise would almost certainly offer benefits.  Ovo do 15p, rate applicable to heat pump consumption only.

@eliuccio good to hear you’re happy with the install. As James said, you can just go ahead with Havenwise yourself because it doesn’t require any technical setup, and Henri’s team is there to help. 

Speaking to everyone that’s used it, Havenwise is the biggest no-brainer in heat pumps:

https://www.havenwise.co.uk/partners/renewable-heating-hub