Air to Water Heat Pump Failures
I am looking for feedback on problems people may be having with their air to water heat pumps, especially within the first 7 years of installation.
My reason for asking relates to my own problems with a heat pump installed in 2014, which after six years of good service started to fail in the Autumn of 2020 and was useless by December 2020. My problems did not end then, as my installer and servicing provider had recently ceased trading and I could not find a local heat pump engineer willing to work on my manufacture of heat pump, which is one of the well-known manufacturers.
By the summer this year I found a heat pump engineer who was 120 miles away, who cost me £250 just to look at the heat pump to tell me that the heat exchanger was leaking gas (which I already suspected) and who wanted another £750+ to carry out more tests.
To cut a long story short, I am in heated discussions (pardon pun) with the manufacturer because I believe that a heat exchanger should not fail after just 6 years after installation (a life expectancy of 20 year + has been quoted) so assert that this heat exchanger was of faulty manufacture. Also, under current consumer regulations, regardless of warranty there is an expected durability of any product, given that their same model is now being sold with a warranty of 7 years, the expected durability must be at least 7 years and from discussions with many other people with professional interest in heat pumps, an expected durability of between 10 and 20 years is reasonable.
The manufacturer (I will not yet give the name as we are still in discussions) has, under duress, sent an independent engineer to inspect and report, who has confirmed the heat exchanger failure as a gas leak into the water system, which explains the excess ‘air’ I had been experiencing in the system and therefore most likely ended up in my house as I bled the radiators. He also found the system to be of satisfactory design (any small fault in the area is jumped upon) but found that the pressure vessel within the heat pump unit had also failed, though there were two pressure vessels to provide necessary protection on the DHW and heating systems.
I have made it clear that I believe that the manufacturer is responsible for undertaking reasonable repairs where expected durability has not been met, and I made it clear that I would express truthful and honest personal views on social media if I was not satisfied. I had to go over the heads to senior management when the tech department and customer services were being smart a…s by ducking and diving and sending me around in circles. I got the names and email addresses of five senior managers including the UK CEO and copied them in. Finally I got action! Inspection was 10 days ago and I am chasing for the manufacturers response.
The heat pump market is a very competitive and rapidly expanding supported by Government. I feel that if there’s any trend for certain manufacturers to be less reliable, either in quality of product or after sales service, then this needs to be highlighted, especially to those in the process of dealing with a heat pump failure and those who are looking to install a heat pump in the near future.
Hi HMK,
Welcome to the forum and thank you very much for sharing your experience.
I agree with you fully about the poor quality and poor level of service that is now becoming the norm rather than the exception. Long gone are the days when the customer was always right.
In the past, I too have had to take the route to higher management after being fobbed off by lower management. Unfortunately the process these days would appear to be 'make it as difficult as possible to get service' in the hope that people will eventually give up. I feel that we should 'name and shame' more often.
Welcome to the forums HMK. I understand that you don't want to reveal the name of the installer. May I please enquire about the make/brand of the heat pump?
Hi Mars, I am still in discussions with the manufacturer as I feel that the product was of faulty manufacture. I will keep the forum up to date with developments as I feel this would help others in a similar situation. I am sure I can reveal the name of the manufacturer shortly, hopefully as a result of a positive outcome.
@hmk, no worries. Look forward to an update.
Buy Bodge Buster – Homeowner Air Source Heat Pump Installation Guide: https://amzn.to/3NVndlU
From Zero to Heat Pump Hero: https://amzn.to/4bWkPFb
Subscribe and follow our Homeowners’ Q&A heat pump podcast
Update on current situation regarding my failed heat pump.
The manufacturer has sent their own engineer to inspect my installation (at their expense) and determined that my system is properly designed and that the heat exchanger has failed and leaked gas into my system rather than externally, also the internal expansion vessel has failed, which they are claiming was the cause of the heat exchanger failure. My system has a larger expansion vessel and I find it surprising that the failure of a part such as the expansion vessel can have such an impact on the far more expensive heat exchanger which is normally quality tested to 30 bar.
They have agreed to provide a replacement heat exchanger and expansion vessel at their expense and I will pick up all other costs. Must not reveal any specific details of deal nor quote manufacturer. Hopefully all will be back in working order next week in time for cold weather approaching. Happy days!
Hi HMK,
There are various reasons why equipment and/or systems fail.
One reason could be flaws in the original materials used to construct the component part.
Another could be faulty manufacture or damage during transit.
Damage could have occurred during installation.
Operation outside the specified maximum operating parameters is also a possible reason for failure.
Wear and tear may also eventually lead to failure.
Without knowing the exact details of your system and component parts it is difficult to give definitive answers. I assume that since the refrigerant gas leaked into the water side, the leak is internal to the Condenser within the ASHP. The fact that the gas leaked in, rather than out into the surrounding air, would also indicate that the leak is internal to the heat exchanger. This would tend to rule out external damage.
An internal leak in the heat exchanger would possibly be caused by one of two things:-
Overpressurisation - though the ASHP controls should contain safety devices to shutdown the heat pump if the gas pressure gets too high. It should also generate alarms or warnings to indicate why the heat pump has shutdown. Did you receive any alarms or warnings?
Manufacturing weaknesses or excessive wear and tear - During operation of the ASHP, the compressor will pressurise the gas in the condenser, and then the gas pressure will fall, before the compressor builds up the pressure again. This is normal operation, but of course as the pressure increases and decreases, there may be slight movement of the metal within the condenser. Also as the pressure changes, so will the temperature, which will cause slight expansion and contraction of the metal parts. Movement of the metal parts, may over time, either cause or find weaknesses in the internal joints.
Was the failed expansion vessel internal to the ASHP or external?
Both internal, and external, expansion vessels are located on the water side, so the failure of either may have been due to the heat exchanger failing, rather than the other way around. There should be a pressure relief valve on the water side of the system, so it may be prudent to have this checked and prove that it is operating and correctly adjusted.
You are correct in your assumption that a correctly designed, manufactured and operated heat exchanger should exceed the manufacturers specified warranty period. Obviously, without more details and possibly inspection of the failed components, it is difficult to be any more specific.
One further aspect to check would be the concentration of antifreeze within the water system, and whether the ASHP was switched off during freezing weather conditions?
Thanks Derek M for your comments, I may have need of these as time progresses.
The latest in my saga is that the replacement parts arrived and I contacted my heat pump engineers to fit the parts, however as soon as they heard that the loss of f-gas was into the water system they backed off. They advised that the labour cost of ensuring that if any water had leaked back into the refrigeration system that this must be totally removed, and then fitting parts, regassing, and commissioning would be a sizable cost towards a new more reliable heat pump, and then in their experience this type of failure was very commonly followed by a cascade of further failures, such as the compressor, pump, etc.
Basically I am left with a pile of heat pump junk with a £10K+ replacement cost.
Thankfully my wife did not sign the gagging order so the whole matter in now in the hands of our insurance company's legal team, as we took out legal cover as part of our property insurance with the NFU.
I think Boris needs to get a hold on the heat pump manufacturers to ensure that all heat pumps are easily and economically repairable or there will be a massive backlash as housing developers install cheap and nasty heat pumps produced by companies cashing in on the boom, that fail just outside their warranty. People will not be happy with £8K to £12K heat pump replacements costs, less than 10 years after they purchase a property.
I think it a very wise move to involve your insurance company, is your ASHP covered by your policy? I think that some time ago there was discussion on the forum about insurance policies which excluded heat pumps.
Without knowing the actual brand and size, I would estimate the cost of a brand new replacement unit in the £3k to £4k range, though if it were supplied at cost by the manufacturer it would be much less. You may be able to make the case that replacing the faulty ASHP with a brand new one, would be more beneficial to the company than all the 'free reviews' that you are prepared to provide.
Personally, I think you should try to push the manufacturer to replace the whole unit free of charge, and then allow them to take the old unit away for inspection, so that they can discover the true cause of failure.
As far as removing any water from the system is concerned, after the installation of any new parts, it would be necessary to remove all the air from the system by means of a vacuum pump. As any reasonably bright school boy should be able to tell you, water boils at lower temperature under vacuum, so by the simple fact of removing the air from the system, they should also remove any water that is present.
There is of course, also the possibility that the cause of the failure of the heat exchanger may have caused further damage or weakness within the ASHP unit, a new replacement unit would therefore be the preferred option.
Hi HMK,
I would be very interested to hear how you get on with your repair. Some of your story has a familiar feel as we are without heating and awaiting a repair under warranty.
I think it would be good to have an ongoing discussion thread on peoples experience of the level of customer service they get from manufacturers, complex systems will always have failures, how these are dealt with is the key factor for customer satisfaction.
Hence in making a buying decision, efficiency, cost, etc are important, but none of these are much use if you are left freezing in the cold for weeks or months!
Update on Heat Pump repair
We contacted our insurers (NFU) who arranged some legal advice. The legal advisor suggested that we give the heat pump manufacturer a further opportunity to repair the heat pump so we contacted the manufacturer indicating that this was the legal advice given. They reluctantly sent an engineer to fit the parts they had previously supplied (with a gagging order) who fitted the parts and have left the heat pump working, however they were due to return to fit a new sensor (they did a bodge to get it working) but that has not happened. I am trying to find a heat pump engineer in the Forest of Dean area who can maintain and service our heat pump, but such a mythical rare creature appears not to exist!
-
Avoid the Heat Pump Villain: Why Low-Loss Headers and Buffers Can Sabotage Your Heat Pump's Efficiency
4 weeks ago
-
Ecodan DHW Settings missing
9 months ago
-
Hacking a heat pump to increase heating range over 38C
9 months ago
-
Vaillant Arotherm Plus PCB Failure
9 months ago
-
Running my heat pump for half the cost of a gas boiler
10 months ago
- 21 Forums
- 1,741 Topics
- 37.2 K Posts
- 69 Online
- 2,033 Members
Join Us!
Latest Posts
-
RE: Baffled by heat pump size/ choice!
OK lets go with 6, 8 minute showers at 10l/min. So you...
By JamesPa , 26 minutes ago
-
Contacted Samsung support (thanks Mike). Two problems a...
By Raiph , 55 minutes ago
-
RE: ASHP Ecodan L9 error - No Heating but Hot Water
Thanks for this Mars. I've actually found out the issue...
By dnagre , 21 hours ago
-
RE: Who's your electricity provider and what's your tariff?
@transparent it doesn't sound good 🤔
By Andris , 21 hours ago
-
RE: 6 Red Flags to Avoid When Considering a Heat Pump Installation
The ASHP, just like a boiler, can supply water at only ...
By JamesPa , 23 hours ago
-
RE: New Samsung 12KW Heat Pump Help
@dinhp I will try and upload an audio file as it is dif...
By Mike H , 23 hours ago
-
RE: Excessive performance/system issues with GSHP
Is the buffer tank in the house? If so, any heat loss s...
By JohnR , 23 hours ago
-
RE: Should We Rethink the Name “Heat Pump” for Homeowners?
@marzipan71 How about ‘Coldtohotbox”?
By Toodles , 1 day ago
-
RE: The good, the bad and the not that great – my heat pump installation
@transparent - here's the page with more details and im...
By cathodeRay , 1 day ago
-
RE: Vaillant ASHP Weather Compensation with Octopus Cosy
In the Vaillant app go to Settings (the cog wheel icon)...
By JohnR , 2 days ago
-
RE: Aira Heat Pump: Stylish Scandinavian Heating
Thanks for your reply. I love Octopus Energy and are a ...
By Trevor , 2 days ago
-
RE: Watch Where Your Installer Fits Motorised Valves
The 2000W Karcher will be out shortly!
By Mars , 2 days ago
-
We had a Daikin 8kW ASHP installed two weeks ago. We h...
By R0y124 , 2 days ago
-
RE: Mitsubishi Ecodan 11kw Defrosting Issue.
I did not have the time to check the thermistors Yester...
By ThunderMink , 3 days ago
-
Evening all. Thanks for the replies. Great info....
By TheHolyHeatPump , 3 days ago
-
RE: Incorrect Billing of Customers with a Smart Meter
It would be nice if there being lower existing demand o...
By Transparent , 3 days ago
-
RE: Mitsubishi Ecodon stuck on immersion symbol
This how my system is running : Top graph is the am...
By ak2024 , 3 days ago
-
RE: Ecodan help - flow temperature spikes when operating in weather compensation mode
@eleusis it can do it but not in 4 hours, you will need...
By Gary , 3 days ago
-
RE: Most treasured kitchen gadget.
@toodles With the machine its as many as I want or s...
By IRMartini , 3 days ago
-
RE: Mitsubishi Ecodan ASHP general set-up and efficiency
@gary The heating bill often looks like we live in a ma...
By ngillam , 3 days ago
Latest Topics
-
Baffled by heat pump size/ choice!
By zuluwarrior 1 day ago
-
Vaillant ASHP Weather Compensation with Octopus Cosy
By tom58l 2 days ago
-
By R0y124 2 days ago
-
Mitsubishi Ecodan 11kw Defrosting Issue.
By ThunderMink 3 days ago
-
By TheHolyHeatPump 4 days ago
-
Flow temperature- At what point?
By Westkent 4 days ago
-
Excessive performance/system issues with GSHP
By didjerama_uk 4 days ago
-
Thermostat setting...still learning
By Profzarkov 4 days ago
-
Watch Where Your Installer Fits Motorised Valves
By Mars 5 days ago
-
Mitsubishi EcoDan ASHP Settings not saving.
By Fez96 5 days ago