@editor No, but any plumber can do it. do not complain about poor running costs when you are not prepaired to do anything about it.

@derek-m I totally agree, just because physics says its possible, doesn't mean it is in practice. However I am inclined to believe the claim for the moment - I can even see his logo behind the controller. I just want to understand exactly the conditions this result comes from. Whats the house heat loss for example? 

Posted by: @batalto

@derek-m I totally agree, just because physics says its possible, doesn't mean it is in practice. However I am inclined to believe the claim for the moment - I can even see his logo behind the controller. I just want to understand exactly the conditions this result comes from. Whats the house heat loss for example? 

Batalto,

The point where I start having difficulty with Brendon's claims is when he states that insulation and heat loss are of no importance. It just does not equate with the laws of Thermodynamics. I fully appreciate that the efficiency of an ASHP can be drastically improved by changing their operating conditions, reducing heat demand being one of them.

@derek-m you clearly need to replace the heat being lost with at least that amount to maintain a stable temperature.

I get the claim that building performance has no impact on the efficiency of the HP - the HP doesn't care where it is, it will simply perform under the conditions its been told to e.g. flow temperature of X. The occupant however cares greatly as 7.4 COP might be fantastic in terms of efficiency, but if you are putting less heat in than you need it does not matter. I could run my ASHP at a flow temperature of 15 degrees and get a great COP - but my house will be cold. 

This is why I would like to know what the parameters are for that HP which mean it delivers and keeps a house at 21 degrees when its 3 degrees outside. if the flow temperature is only 27 degrees that means the house is losing 6 degrees across all of its fabric to maintain that temperature. Given the fact radiators aren't ideal for low temperatures as well there are a bunch of questions.

@batalto It is not me you have to convince, I agree fully with all your statements.

I dreamt I had 10 ASHPs installed last night. Just saying! 🤪 

I'm assuming @heacol is the only installer we have on the forum at the moment. It does seems that he might be onto something. Perhaps the reason most installations have buffer tanks is that the industry as a whole still has a 'boiler' mentality when it comes to designing installations.

It's easy to see why they think their installations are fit for purpose, if customers are not complaining about COP.

I imagine 'run of the mill' installers have no particular interest in having a system run as efficiently as possible, they aren't paying the electricity bill. They would rather have a system that delivers heat reliably that they don't have to come back to. This is where we are I think.

I agree with @editor that Brendons comments are not being ignored, they just aren't simple to implement for those of us that have systems already installed and may be under warranty.

Mars, perhaps you could raise the question of full flow, buffer less systems if you manage to get an interview with someone suitable?

Posted by: @markc

I dreamt I had 10 ASHPs installed last night. Just saying! 🤪 

I'm assuming @heacol is the only installer we have on the forum at the moment. It does seems that he might be onto something. Perhaps the reason most installations have buffer tanks is that the industry as a whole still has a 'boiler' mentality when it comes to designing installations.

It's easy to see why they think their installations are fit for purpose, if customers are not complaining about COP.

I imagine 'run of the mill' installers have no particular interest in having a system run as efficiently as possible, they aren't paying the electricity bill. They would rather have a system that delivers heat reliably that they don't have to come back to. This is where we are I think.

I agree with @editor that Brendons comments are not being ignored, they just aren't simple to implement for those of us that have systems already installed and may be under warranty.

Mars, perhaps you could raise the question of full flow, buffer less systems if you manage to get an interview with someone suitable?

 

Mark, Spot on.

Mars can get Heat Geeks on to explain it.

I have found the heat pump industry as a whole to be very divisive, and approaches to thinking and installations are binary. It's either 1 or 0. Buffer tank or no buffer tank. Open loop systems versus controllers (thermostats, TRVs, etc.). There appears to be  no middle ground. I'm not saying that what Brendan does is not better – he is just in the minority because every quote we received (six in total) had a buffer. Most users on the forums that have had heat pumps installed in the last 2-3 years will have buffer tanks. Quick show of hands – who has a buffer tank as part of their heat pump system?

If buffer tanks are installed because installers are "lazy" and don't want phones ringing because flow is insufficient leading to heat pump errors, that's inexcusable. These systems cost a lot of money and they should be installed to the highest, most efficient standard. 

I will invite installers to have a look through this forum, and hopefully some will respond, and we'll see where this conversation goes.

Well I’m completely baffled.......I shouldn’t have to faff about with a system like this it’s ridiculous! I didn’t have to do this with a gas boiler!

As someone with a post grad education in a science I find all the do this, try this, maybe this - very unscientific and can see 10 years down the line ASHP will be the elephant in the room.....I should add, I’m normally pretty good at following instructions and working things out and certainly not averse to giving it a go....

Apparently I can’t change the compensation curve settings it has to be the installer.......

@caroline2000 just find the access code for the model you have. A quick google should do it, it'll be in the manual

@caroline2000, this is a worrying trend. Homeowners are asked make the switch, at heavy expense, and there appear to be no concrete guidelines in place that installers should abide by, and as a result consumers are being asked to grapple with, and understand, systems that should just work. 

Posted by: @editor

@caroline2000, this is a worrying trend. Homeowners are asked make the switch, at heavy expense, and there appear to be no concrete guidelines in place that installers should abide by, and as a result consumers are being asked to grapple with, and understand, systems that should just work . 

Mars, I have said this before, it is your friend, Ian Rippin's fault. This is exactly what MCS is supposed to do, it is the installation standard for renewable energy products and installations. Unfortunately, it is a tick box exercise that adds £2500.00 to your bill and produces the result that you all see. Installations that are not for purpose. I despair, and have had many heated arguments with him and other leaders of our industry, I am not very well liked because I do not keep quiet, and believe me, I have paid the price. They are all in if for themselves and not for you, and that is what they are protecting.

Maybe you need to get him back on and hold him to account.

Your statement "as a result consumers are being asked to grapple with, and understand, systems that should just work", is exactly why I have spent the last 10 years designing a unit that "just works", I am now in the process of trying to get funding to take it to the next stage but have now been refused twice by OFGEM and BIAS, they seam to deem a direct electric boiler to be a more environmentally efficient product. But I will persevere.