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12kW Samsung gen 6 short cycling

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(@iancalderbank)
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@iantelescope I've no idea what changes are needed on your system. I think it would be very useful if you could draw a schematic of your system? That would help this forum to help you, and would be useful in the future for all sorts of reasons.

My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
Derek M reacted
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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @iantelescope

@iancalderbank 

My Volumising tank  was originally designed  and selected by Samsung Dallium , Samsung's own service depot at Wigan .

My "installer's technical designer " then described the Samsung proposal to install the volumising tank as "ludicrous" and that "their own engineers would complete the job".

My "installer's technical designer "was then fired "for Technical incompetence!".

The Volumising tank was then "discovered under the former Technical designer's desk .....some two months later!

Two "Engineer's" then appeared to install the "Volumising tank " but "did not know where the tank was to be installed within the pipework.

The "Volumising tank " was designed by Samsung-Dallium to "allow the Heat pump to complete DE-icing on Cold Scottish nights".

The MCS also provided information about controlling  short Cycling.........with a different size of volumising tank in a different pipework location!

Buffer sizing 11

The "Volumising tank was fitted across the Primary ports of my Heat Exchanger .......total confusion!

The DE-icing works very well during winter.

The Short-Cycling on the primary water loop has also stopped.

However, the Secondary water loop, the radiator loop , is now hyper-cycling ..........

4248

Presumably another volumising tank should be fitted to my secondary , radiator water loop?

ian

 

 

I'm having difficulty picturing your system from your description.

If my understanding is correct, you have a volumising tank connected in parallel with the primary side of your heat exchanger, rather than in series with it.

Do you have any thermostats or controls on the secondary side of the heat exchanger?

Do you know why a heat exchanger was installed? Can you see any make or model details?

What do you mean by hyper-cycling on the secondary side of the heat exchanger?

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@derek-m Is my Heat Exchanger really a buffer tank?

Hi Derek,

My Heat Exchanger is a Heat Exchanger! I did not want , or order, a heat exchanger or a Volumising tank ...........but I got Both!

I am using the PWM because there is very little left for me to alter.

I am trying to better control  the power at the bottom of the Inverter power curve hopefully replacing the short-cycling that occurs at the bottom of the curve with the home made PWM inverter.

The simplest solution would be to get the correct Samsung 5kw Heat Pump with a 150 litre hot water tank.

I do not want heat exchangers or buffer tanks or double pumps............just simplicity in a one water loop configuration for what is , a  very small house.

My installer , having been struck off twice , is now trying to get reinstated with the MCS and NIC..............god forbid.

The "Charitable" Regulators have also resumed silence ........................de-neighing  all responsibility....advising legal action......

ian

 

 

 

 


   
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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @iantelescope

@derek-m Is my Heat Exchanger really a buffer tank?

Hi Derek,

My Heat Exchanger is a Heat Exchanger! I did not want , or order, a heat exchanger or a Volumising tank ...........but I got Both!

I am using the PWM because there is very little left for me to alter.

I am trying to better control  the power at the bottom of the Inverter power curve hopefully replacing the short-cycling that occurs at the bottom of the curve with the home made PWM inverter.

The simplest solution would be to get the correct Samsung 5kw Heat Pump with a 150 litre hot water tank.

I do not want heat exchangers or buffer tanks or double pumps............just simplicity in a one water loop configuration for what is , a  very small house.

My installer , having been struck off twice , is now trying to get reinstated with the MCS and NIC..............god forbid.

The "Charitable" Regulators have also resumed silence ........................de-neighing  all responsibility....advising legal action......

ian

 

 

 

 

I'm afraid that I cannot help if you do not provide the requested information.

I wish you the best of luck in resolving your problems.

 


   
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(@iancalderbank)
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@iantelescope same as derek-m, its not quite dragon's den "I'm out" but please help us to help you.

if you want that help from us to potentially do some remediation yourself, please draw up a schematic, noting down what the components are.  lines and boxes is fine, not a work of art.

if you want your system remediated by another installer, then @editor maintains details of installers who may be able to help with that.

My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@derek-m @iancalderbank 

I am also having difficulty with my Heat Pump.

My System was originally a "plumbed In " Heat Pump manufactured by Telford.

The System was designed to meet an order for a double Samsung Heat Pump for a customer in the "south of England".

The Order fell through , and the twin Heat pumps were divided into two.

As originally conceived both of the original Heat pumps were connected with a piping system.

To protect each Heat Pump from the other both were fitted with Heat Exchangers.

So , my system is half of an order for a double Heat Pump!

When delivered the "installer" neglected to install :

1 A SIKA Flow Meter

2 A Expansion Vessel with two PRV's.

3. A Thermostat.

4. A volumising tank.

5. Two "Landlord" Electricity meters.

The System was started without sufficient water in the primary water loop  , Heat Pump to Heat Exchanger Circuit.

I discovered a large box containing the missing components which were fitted over the next two months. All except the meters which still lie unused and unfitted!

The SIKA water flow sensors were initially fitted to the secondary, radiator circuit, then moved on three occasions into , finally, the correct position.

.....The Story gets too boring and complicated ......but it more of the same incompetence for six months.

All of the original documentation has mysteriously disappeared with Samsung , Telford and the Installers all de-neighing responsibility along with the "charitable" regulators MCS,NIC and RECC.

The Volumising tank was designed by Samsung-Dallium from their site at Wigan initially to remove short-cycling but later to allow the DE-icing to complete".

The "installer" has been "STRUCK OFF TWICE by the MCS and the NIC.

ian

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


   
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(@iancalderbank)
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@iantelescope so that sounds to me well beyond the support of this forum for a bit of DIY tuning. you need a professional to rebuild it properly, and MCS to pay for that.

@editor can you help ?

My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@iancalderbank 

Hi Ian, Again many thanks.

I will have to fix this myself , here is very complex block diagram of my Heat Pump.

 The System was designed for a double Samsung system using Heat exchangers to connect the separate systems.

The Radiator water loop is pumped by a separate Grundfoss PWM pump controlled by a Honeywell Thermostat in my living room.

The Primary water loop is controlled by the Air sensor on top of the outdoor Heat pump.

The System is always used under Weather Compensation ( nee Water Law).

Personally, I would like to abandon the entire system, returning to a far simpler One water loop  system without Heat Exchangers, Volumisers or secondary pumps , Expansion vessels and PRV's.

 

 

ian


   
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(@iancalderbank)
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@iantelescope what do you mean by FCU? that usually means Fan Coil Unit, a heat/cool emitter that combines a fan and a heating exchanger, but I doubt that's what you mean?

the rest of it makes sense, apart from the where the volumiser is . where you've shown it is a shortcut to return on the primary side, means that not all primary flow goes through the HEX, some % of primary flow takes short cut through the volumiser. thus degrading the primary side's output capacity. If I understand your diagram right.

single loop is what I have and what is taken as simplest and most efficient by most, but if you rebuild to that yourself, I'd expect you'll lose all hope of MCS remediation. I can see that you are utterly frustrated with the complaints and remediation processes and if you are 100% decided to DIY that then this forum will help you with deciding which bits to keep and which bits aren't needed and where to put what.

But it does seem to me that a better approach in your case would be to get help in forcing the MCS process to remediate your system for you. there are installers on this forum who'd do a good job of that remediation. they can and probably will rebuild it to a single loop.

just a few pointers. in a single loop system : you don't have a HEX nor usually a second pump (* unless , sometimes, large house with complex / lossy plumbing) . but you can't / shouldn't get rid of that lot: you  always need one expansion vessel and one PRV on the heating. And a PRV on the hot water (why you have two there, I am not sure - are you sure you've correctly identified those components? - photos can help at this point). your 2nd expansion and 4th PRV are because you have two separated heating circuits, that is correct and to be expected for a 2 loop system. A volumiser is also generally considered a good thing in a single loop (it can't make it worse - if in the right place) so worth keeping if you go that way.

My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
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(@iantelescope)
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 198
 

@iancalderbank @derek-m

Many thanks for your help over the last few weeks.

Believe me , and this is not a cynical comment " I appreciate your patience and help ."

Most of the people involved over the last year have been , as with yourselves, thoroughly descent folk.

Even the visiting Samsung engineer , despite his Gallic pride, admitted that "Only the Germans understand Samsung Heat Pumps!."

Anyway, many thanks

ian

 

 

 


   
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(@derek-m)
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@iantelescope

What are the settings of your weather compensation curve?


   
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Mars
 Mars
(@editor)
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@iancalderbank, thanks for raising this and bringing it to my attention. 

@iantelescope, which county are you based in?

Buy Bodge Buster – Homeowner Air Source Heat Pump Installation Guide: https://amzn.to/3NVndlU

Follow our sustainability journey at My Home Farm: https://myhomefarm.co.uk


   
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