Posted by: @editor

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Apps and computer programmes will ensure compliance

Sorry to negative. Never convinced when people say Apps are the way to easy compliance, never normally the case.

Posted by: @editor

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The result will be systems with running costs comparable to the fuel they replace, delivering exceptional comfort levels to users.

So fully open system and low flow temperature and minimal controls or zones.

Posted by: @editor

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that an attempt was made to bring Ian Rippon from MCS on board to make similar changes several years ago, but he refused. This new effort, therefore, represents a long-awaited step towards innovation in heat pump standard

Sorry that is just a sad fact, that a single person is needed to change or develop new standard.

My simple view is delete all MCS reference from permitted development, include a noise spec you must meet. Stop the grants to get realistic pricing in the market place. Make it mandatory for all new builds to have an ASHP and any planning applications for existing properties to include an ASHP or all electric heating of an alternative technology.

For a new build an ASHP costs no more than a gas boiler in most cases.

Posted by: @johnmo

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So fully open system and low flow temperature and minimal controls or zones.

That’ll almost certainly be the case.

As for the apps, if done properly on the back of solid foundations, they could significantly improve efficiency. As with all things in life, it’s about execution.

I also agree about MCS; their purpose in heat pumps seems non-existent.

However, I disagree with you on grants. Labour in the UK is expensive, and installers value their time and price it accordingly. I've posted this many times, but our labour costs for three days to install our heat pump were around £5,000 for three guys on site, out of a total system cost of £16,000. That’s very expensive, and perhaps grants have inflated those costs. Even if they halved their labour charges, it would still be a hefty bill. The high installation costs, even with grants, make it difficult for many homeowners to adopt this sustainable technology.

Posted by: @editor

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total system cost of £16,000

This is the bit I don't understand, I opened a City Plumbing Account, just as a normal person.

210L slimline heat pump cylinder £805.

Most properties only need around 6-8kW heat pump so they are retail between £2 and 3k. Other than a bit of plumbing which is a plumbers bread and butter not a lot else the odd radiator seems to get upgraded. Unless the house needs a full replumb, but that would most likely be the case for a new boiler.

A lot of the poorly insulated housing stock would actually get the biggest CO2 reduction by installing a heat pump in hybrid mode anyway, then a 4kW ASHP would be fine, but no grants for that.

@johnmo @editor

My self install. 5kW Samsung, Mixergy cylinder and limited radiator upgrades probably cost me about £6000 (inc plumber for pressurised cylinder install). I spent maybe a week or so single handed doing it. To me the labour costs seem extortionate.

Posted by: @editor

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Posted by: @editor

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Apps and computer programmes will ensure compliance

Sorry to negative. Never convinced when people say Apps are the way to easy compliance, never normally the case

I agree. I've yet to encounter an "app" that was

Posted by: @editor

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done properly on the back of solid foundations

They all seem to suffer from bugs and fairly poor support. BTW, it is computer programs; programmes are things you watch on TV.

PS I have no idea why they system has attributed the quote to the editor instead of Johnmo. (is it an app 😆 ) Please fix if possible.

Pretty obvious who the source is ♨️🤓

@wizard you’re joking aren’t you? There’s absolutely no way it’s them - if Flexi-Orb get this right, ♨️🤓 become redundant!

Posted by: @bontwoody

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To me the labour costs seem extortionate.

There is high correlation with the amount of government subsidy and the labour charge made by installers. 🤔 

OTOH there's little correlation between the cost of labour and the efficiency achieved by correct design & installation.

Regardless of their political flavour, government seems to believe that you can set a target and achieve it solely by making policy decisions and offering financial incentives.
But science/engineering doesn't work like that.

I agree with @johnmo that the component parts of the installation aren't particularly expensive.

The entire shopping list isn't likely to be more than the present £7500 subsidy.

@wizard who do you think it is?

Ah, I see the clue was in the emojis. Very clever – it was like playing totes emoji. Took me a while to work out – getting old!

In response: 🤐😉

I suspect my views are different to many on the forum.

I would prefer if the boiler upgrade scheme was 100% means tested. I object to giving my money to people who could afford the change anyway now.

Zero upfront subsidy now for those who can afford it. We have had a non means tested subsidy for heat pumps for far too long now. It is not a financially sustainable way of increasing take up anymore and it distorts the market.

Use other levers for increasing takeup. 

I am glad we no longer have up front EV subsidies for retail sales, although the company car rules distort the market.

@jeff I’ll admit that I was grateful for the £5000 BUS grant - I have forked out a great deal more than that of course and was fortunate in having savings to use. I am happy to forego the winter fuel allowance in favour of those less fortunate whose need is greater than mine.

I am as yet, undecided about the multibillion black hole story and I dare say there will have to be other cuts before the shakedown is complete but I don’t wish to start ‘polyticking’ here.

My winter fuel bill with Octopus is likely to be as low as anyone’s I feel, I have invested in many measures and hope that some of these will be employed for those who can least afford it and help to level the playing field a little through government grants. Regards, Toodles.