@johnmo No one seems to disagree that the pricing structure is (to use Greg Jackson’s choice word) Bonkers! I think there are some very greedy bar stewards with interest in fossil fuels who would hate to see the gas price driven boat rocked and the rest of us are the worse off for it all. As I say, most everyone is of the same opinion over the bonkers pricing structure - but no-one of influence seems to wish risking raising their head above the parapet and grasping the nettle. Summat is rotten in the State of UK! Reluctantly, Toodles.

So is agile the correct tariff to be on in the winter - why not just switch to a different more cost effective tariff? Paying 99p per kWh is ... Leave you full the blanks. Agile and battery may make sense, if you don't have a battery or just a small one, then just do a more stable tariff.

The only way to get most this stuff - PV, heat pumps etc, is take away the MCS cost adder and do it yourself. Typically paying £6k for 6 panel system to allow export is just daft. A few months a year, if you do live at home during the day, you will export. Never get a pay back before the system dies of old age.

We at 22 PV panels, some bought new, some second hand, paid about £3500 in total. Have a battery also, actually paid full price install for that, because the maths worked out well on about 5 year payback period.

Our typical daily electricity cost at the moment is about 60 to 80p. That's with cooling running 24/7, all household electricity etc. I exported 1.8kWh yesterday, so if paid for it would have got under 30p. Would take a long time to get back the additional cost of an MCS PV installation.

@johnmo I have been looking at the daily Agile rates for some months now (idle curiosity as I left Agile last July) and it seems to me that there have been very few days when enough HH’s are available where the price is even competitive with Cosy cheap 8 hours of the day. In possession of a battery is a requisite for this Cosy rate to win through I know but if one has the capacity, I feel Cosy is the better option. Those 8 hours (spread over the day) can outcompete the ‘iffyness’ of Agile under these circumstances I think.

I am trialling Intelligent Octopus Flux and will decide at the end of the month whether to stick or move back to Cosy - IOF may work for the sunnier warmer months but I shall review the situation in due course. I am a little concerned about resultant battery degradation though as 98% capacity being discharged down to 20% daily for approx. £2.50 - £3.00 allowing for the uplift on the export rate does not feel like a clincher to me. So far, the Octopus plan seems to want to charge my battery from the grid (@ ~23 pence per kWh and pay me ~29 pence per kWh for export between 16:00 and 19:00. For the other 21 hours of the day, the export rate is ~23 pence. per kWh - better than Cosy but is it battery thrashingly better? Quizzically yours, Toodles.

Posted by: @toodles

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@johnmo No one seems to disagree that the pricing structure is (to use Greg Jackson’s choice word) Bonkers! I think there are some very greedy bar stewards with interest in fossil fuels who would hate to see the gas price driven boat rocked and the rest of us are the worse off for it all. As I say, most everyone is of the same opinion over the bonkers pricing structure - but no-one of influence seems to wish risking raising their head above the parapet and grasping the nettle. Summat is rotten in the State of UK! Reluctantly, Toodles.

There is consensus that the current model isn't fit for purpose, where there isn't concensus is what a new model should look like or the financial impact of different models.

It is very difficult to cut through all the funded studies from different stakeholders...

Posted by: @jeff

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Posted by: @toodles

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@johnmo No one seems to disagree that the pricing structure is (to use Greg Jackson’s choice word) Bonkers! I think there are some very greedy bar stewards with interest in fossil fuels who would hate to see the gas price driven boat rocked and the rest of us are the worse off for it all. As I say, most everyone is of the same opinion over the bonkers pricing structure - but no-one of influence seems to wish risking raising their head above the parapet and grasping the nettle. Summat is rotten in the State of UK! Reluctantly, Toodles.

There is consensus that the current model isn't fit for purpose, where there isn't concensus is what a new model should look like or the financial impact of different models.

It is very difficult to cut through all the funded studies from different stakeholders...

That's a very perceptive point, @jeff. We're all very good at spotting when something's wrong and demanding "something should be done about it", but few of us take the next step to realising that "something" needs to be defined. Even fewer then actually try to act.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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That's a very perceptive point, @jeff. We're all very good at spotting when something's wrong and demanding "something should be done about it", but few of us take the next step to realising that "something" needs to be defined. Even fewer then actually try to act.

Very well said.

When people complain about 'the council's or 'the government' I've taken to asking them 'so what would you do instead then?'.  Mostly this results in silence, occasionally it results in a response like 'well it's not my job so how should I know?' to which (if I'm feeling provocative and brave) I might reply ' well if you don't know what the alternative is, how do you know that (whatever they are complaining about) isn't the best available option?'.

I'm not sure I'm making many friends this way, but I am sure that the question needs to be asked.  People seem to believe they can have it all, which they can't.

Personally I absolutely detest the second law of thermodynamics (which is one of the reasons people can't have it all), but I am not complaining about (insert your chosen deity or none), because I don't have an alternative coherent model of the universe to put forward.

I do not agree that the issue is lack of consensus on a new model of energy pricing. There are over 12 different pricing models that can all work but like the current Marginal Pricing model they all involve pain at some point in the process. The current consensus that MP doesn't work comes from the consumer who gets the pain, evenly. Moving to Nodal Pricing as Greg suggests shifts the pain to a particular group of consumers and the big 6.   This is where the problem lies. Nodal Pricing makes economic and technical sense but would be very politically unpopular and with politicians only focused on the next election it will never be allowed.

The issue is not one of consensus or do I have an alternative, the issue is entirely political.

@abernyte I tend to agree with you. However the situation in the UK is a typical example why nothing is ever achieved in this country.

As time rolls by, I fear we are loosing the green momentum, me being a case in point. With the strike price for renewable generation being similar to gas, the ever increasing curtailment bill to switch off more and more renewable generation because of lack of grid capacity, I cannot see household bills ever coming down in my lifetime.

Personally I think whichever Government is in power should primarily focus on getting the Grid fit for purpose first before building any more renewable generation. I would also advocate spending the money on assisting homeowners to install batteries, PV's and an intelligent comms system so NESO (or whoever is responsible for balancing) can control household battery charging to assist in grid balancing.

I personally have had to make a choice for next winter. I do not have batteries and PV's because I do not have the budget for it and because of Tariffs favouring either EV's or Heatpumps, I have had to make a decision and the EV will be kept going. My heatpump cost (at a SCOP of 4.25) for last winter was £850, I have just filled my oil tank for £534, a no brainer, the heat pump is going offline next winter sadly.

If there was better financial assistance to help me create my own electricity or store cheaper electricity then it would make the heat pump financially viable but as it stands sadly it is not viable. I would also like to think I am in the same boat as the majority of people, getting a heatpump is only half the challenge, you still need to have a small power station to make it financially work, which is out of reach for most households. 

Posted by: @technogeek

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heatpump cost (at a SCOP of 4.25) for last winter was £850, I have just filled my oil tank for £534, a no brainer, the heat pump is going offline next winter sadly.

Why not hybrid - above 5 degs outside (or at whatever temperature you start to defrost) a heat pump will beat anything hands down on running cost. At the point it starts to defrost most other are getting to the same running cost or better.

Best of both worlds for running costs. If you have a time of use tariff, heat pump will beat anything  at any outside temperature during that period.

 "I have just filled my oil tank for £534, a no brainer,"   I understand that totally. However therein lies the disgrace that Governments supposedly focused on a climate crises allows kerosene to be sold at 6p/kWh emitting the largest amount of carbon for any of the common heating fuels. Wur doomed!

Posted by: @abernyte

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 "I have just filled my oil tank for £534, a no brainer,"   I understand that totally. However therein lies the disgrace that Governments supposedly focused on a climate crises allows kerosene to be sold at 6p/kWh emitting the largest amount of carbon for any of the common heating fuels. Wur doomed!

They are also paying people to replace old gas boilers with new for free - it's all f!cked up.