Simple water tank thermostat with legionella cycle?
Out of curiosity, I have been doing some simple calculations on the energy required to heat a domestic hot water tank. Based on the way that heat pumps typically heat DHW to a lower temperature and then add a periodic cycle to heat to a higher temp to kill any bacteria, I wondered roughly how much energy this would save if it was applied to a conventional boiler system.
Turns out this could be over 17% over the course of a year which is significant (e.g. once a day 170L from 10deg to 60deg vs 10 deg to 50deg then 60deg once a week).
Does anyone do an add-on to a simple dumb tank stat that would allow this periodic temperature cycling? Seems like a no-brainer to me with a potential good energy saving. (the dumb stat could remain, but as a safety device at say, 65deg, rather than a controller)
This is the nearest cheap solution I've seen: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-innovation-heat-pumps-2021-how-cut-your-pump-graham-hendra/, although it uses the immersion heater to do the boost heat to 60deg.
Just means the normal tank stat can be set to (say) 50deg and then the timer is set to turn the immersion on after a normal HW heating cycle to do the final boost heat once a week.
Hi @cycleneil
As with many other situations in life, there are often different ways to achieve the same objective. When it comes to providing hot water, this can be achieved in the most cost effective manner, the most energy efficient manner, or hopefully a combination of the two. Much depends upon your present system, how you wish to operate this system, and if you are willing to improve your present system.
With just your present ASHP, the most energy efficient and probably most cost effective manner to provide hot water, would be to heat it using solely the heat pump. Whether you do this during the cooler nighttime, during the warmer part of the day, or a combination of the two, would depend on your daily usage and preferences. I will go through the various options.
If you are on a lower cost overnight electricity tariff, then it should be much more cost effective to produce your hot water using your ASHP during this period, but since your heat pump will not be operating as efficiently, it will use more energy. Once per week, or as recommended by the heat pump manufacturer, it would also be possible to perform the disinfectant heating cycle, using solely your heat pump if it is capable, or a combination of heat pump and immersion heater.
If you are not on a lower cost overnight electricity tariff, then producing hot water during the warmer part of the day should be more efficient and less expensive. Heat pumps operate more efficient when the outdoor air temperature is warmer.
The above two methods should apply equally to both Winter and Summer.
If you are fortunate enough to have a suitably sized solar PV system, or contemplate installing one, then from Spring through to Autumn it should be possible to supply a large proportion of your hot water needs, at very little cost and energy consumption. Such a system should also be possible to perform the disinfection cycle in most cases. A suitable electricity diverter unit would also be required along with the solar PV system.
An alternative method to provide hot water would be using a solar thermal system, which whilst not as versatile as solar PV, is in fact much more efficient. Such a system would probably require a hot water cylinder with dual heating coils. I do believe that solar thermal is cheaper to install than solar PV.
The above two methods obviously will not be able to supply all your hot water demand during the Winter months, when an alternative source will be required.
Hi @derek-m
I wasn’t necessarily thinking about an ASHP system, or a situation with PV, just how a boiler-based heating system could be made more efficient given that most are pretty dumb!
Posted by: @cycleneilHi @derek-m
I wasn’t necessarily thinking about an ASHP system, or a situation with PV, just how a boiler-based heating system could be made more efficient given that most are pretty dumb!
Hi Neil,
What is your boiler based system, and what exactly are you trying to achieve? From my understanding, running a gas or oil boiler at higher temperatures does not affect its overall efficiency to the same degree as with an ASHP.
Posted by: @cycleneil@derek-m Just to save the energy needed to raise the HW temp to 60deg when 50deg is sufficient normally.
Hi Neil,
I appreciate that, but without knowing what system you have at the moment and how you are operating it, I can hardly give any advice on how it may be improved.
@derek-m The house I am buying has oil heating with a 20 year old non-condensing boiler, but I plan to do nothing to the system for 1 winter while I see what the fabric is like after I have replaced the windows and doors and improved the loft insulation.
From my quick inspection while deciding to purchase, it has a simple on/off timed program control system for heating and h/w with a simple bimetallic tank stat which I expect is set at 60deg. It looks to have a fairly new unvented h/w tank, so I’d expect that to be decently insulated.
I was just looking for some simple/cheap energy saving wins that will work with a dumb system before I make some proper decisions in 2023.
Hi @cycleneil
I have had a quick look on the internet for a suitable device to replace your present thermostat, but I cannot find a simple solution.
The only thing that I can suggest at the moment is to set your present thermostat at 50C, or whatever setting that you desire, and then once each week or so turn it up to 60C for a period of time. Since you have a non-condensing boiler, I am not certain that you will reduce your energy consumption by very much.
@derek-m I don’t really know at this point without doing some experiments. I mean to get myself some openenergymonitor gear, so I could just set the tank stat to 60deg as usual and log the tank temperature for a few days. I should get a good idea of the potential saving, especially with a dumb oil boiler that can’t modulate so has constant oil consumption vs burn time. A reduction in burn time by heating to a lower temperature is a direct oil saving.
Posted by: @cycleneil@derek-m I don’t really know at this point without doing some experiments. I mean to get myself some openenergymonitor gear, so I could just set the tank stat to 60deg as usual and log the tank temperature for a few days. I should get a good idea of the potential saving, especially with a dumb oil boiler that can’t modulate so has constant oil consumption vs burn time. A reduction in burn time by heating to a lower temperature is a direct oil saving.
I doubt that it would be possible to accurately measure the energy usage, since it will be very much dependent upon the amount of hot water used.
I don't see why it would be difficult to measure energy consumption. It would be the boiler oil consumption rate times the time the oil is being pumped in. I am sure I read of someone on the openenergymonitor forums doing it by putting a power sensor on the power line to the boiler oil pump.
- 22 Forums
- 2,073 Topics
- 45.5 K Posts
- 51 Online
- 3,352 Members
Join Us!
Trusted Installers
Struggling to find a reliable heat pump installer? A poor installation can lead to inefficiencies and high running costs. We now connect homeowners with top-rated installers who deliver quality work and excellent service.
✅ Verified, trusted & experienced installers
✅ Nationwide coverage expanding
✅ Special offers available
Latest Posts
-
RE: Commencing on an ASHP Installation Process
I think therein lies the problem. Ratio of quotes to i...
By JamesPa , 17 hours ago
-
RE: Why Your MCS-Certified Installer Might Not Be As Competent As You Think
Hive and most other smart thermostats don't play well w...
By JamesPa , 20 hours ago
-
RE: Enabling WiFi: Samsung ASHP on Smart Things App
Thanks for the input. I've been running various experim...
By Grahamh-uk , 20 hours ago
-
RE: Radiators downstairs are cooler at the bottom after ASHP install
@melonbuffet Hi, this sounds great is you are getting 5...
By ASHP-BOBBA , 22 hours ago
-
RE: 5 Star Service from Havenwise
... a mode of operation which increases losses due to p...
By Transparent , 23 hours ago
-
RE: Ripped Off: How UK Homeowners Are Paying Gas Prices for Wind Energy
I believe there's another reason that network upgrades ...
By Transparent , 2 days ago
-
RE: What’s the modern take on advised types of insulation?
@jeff I am sorry @jeff if I have misunderstood what you...
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
RE: Getting the best out of a heat pump - is Homely a possible answer?
@editor Cobbler’s Mantra that!
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
RE: Renewables & Heat Pumps in the News
Australia Blue, the first wind farm in Western Victoria...
By Morgan , 3 days ago
-
RE: Flow rate discrepancy between ASHP and manifold
That's useful thanks, I hadn't seen that table before. ...
By AshRolls , 4 days ago
-
In principle I agree, @johnmo, but with provisos. The...
By Majordennisbloodnok , 4 days ago
-
RE: Heat pump installation and BUS Grant timings
@jamespa Thats how I understood it too. 🙂
By ASHP-BOBBA , 4 days ago
-
RE: Antifreeze top up for my heat pump - is this a rip off?
@sallyl That sounds about right if they are re-filling ...
By Brendon Uys , 4 days ago
-
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Heat pump designers ...
By JamesPa , 5 days ago
-
RE: Jokes and fun posts about heat pumps and renewables
@toodles they're a rowdy bunch!
By Mars , 5 days ago
-
RE: Home energy storage & battery register
@jamespa To a certain extent, by exporting to the grid ...
By Toodles , 6 days ago
-
RE: Forum updates, announcements & issues
@editor Fairy Nuff Mars, I doubt that my ramblings woul...
By Toodles , 7 days ago
-
RE: Confusion about heat pump sizing
We’ve published a deep dive into heat pump sizing, and ...
By Mars , 1 week ago
-
We’ve published a deep dive into heat pump sizing, and ...
By Mars , 1 week ago