Posted by: @toodles

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@alfapat Well done, you are well underway but keep the LSV spanner/key handy for any tweaking you might wish to carry out later! Yes, see how the comfort level is for a day or two and if all rooms are still warm enough to your liking, then you might wish to lower the (what I know as leaving water temperature and I think you know as water law) another degree then wait and see. If you find that most rooms are still at your comfort level but perhaps one has become just a tad cool, you can tweak that LSV open a ‘nadgers’ [very technical term there!]. You can rinse and repeat until you find that the whole house is starting to drop slightly below your comfort level for all rooms. You then just take the LWT/WL up a degree again! Keep us informed how things go. The final stage may be to adjust any rooms that you wish cooler when there is solar gain or for ‘cooler at nightime’ such as a bedroom using a TRV. Regards, Toodles.

Moving on a bit , I had all the rads where I wanted them at WL 44C. Rooms near the Movable room stat 22 . Smaller ones near 20c (Bedrooms) mainly.

In order to get the most economical flow temp I dropped the temp to 38c . The larger rooms were hardly reaching the spot by 1 degree. I also noticed the Kwh had risen on the smart meter .(I assume taking longer to get the room stat to agree and not reaching it) Overnight the two smaller rooms which were set to 2 degrees lower that Sta requirment were cold .

Clearly Wrong !

So I have put the flow temp back to 44c .

Incedently The room thermostat is always placed in the hall overnight where the open rad is stuated , I m not sure that this is the best place to place this , because if it last in line of flow returns then its going to take more Kwh to maintain the rest of the house temperatures.

Another trial to carry out and monitor.

Posted by: @alfapat

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Posted by: @toodles

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@alfapat Well done, you are well underway but keep the LSV spanner/key handy for any tweaking you might wish to carry out later! Yes, see how the comfort level is for a day or two and if all rooms are still warm enough to your liking, then you might wish to lower the (what I know as leaving water temperature and I think you know as water law) another degree then wait and see. If you find that most rooms are still at your comfort level but perhaps one has become just a tad cool, you can tweak that LSV open a ‘nadgers’ [very technical term there!]. You can rinse and repeat until you find that the whole house is starting to drop slightly below your comfort level for all rooms. You then just take the LWT/WL up a degree again! Keep us informed how things go. The final stage may be to adjust any rooms that you wish cooler when there is solar gain or for ‘cooler at nightime’ such as a bedroom using a TRV. Regards, Toodles.

Moving on a bit , I had all the rads where I wanted them at WL 44C. Rooms near the Movable room stat 22 . Smaller ones near 20c (Bedrooms) mainly.

In order to get the most economical flow temp I dropped the temp to 38c . The larger rooms were hardly reaching the spot by 1 degree. I also noticed the Kwh had risen on the smart meter .(I assume taking longer to get the room stat to agree and not reaching it) Overnight the two smaller rooms which were set to 2 degrees lower that Sta requirment were cold .

Clearly Wrong !

So I have put the flow temp back to 44c .

Incedently The room thermostat is always placed in the hall overnight where the open rad is stuated , I m not sure that this is the best place to place this , because if it last in line of flow returns then its going to take more Kwh to maintain the rest of the house temperatures.

Another trial to carry out and monitor.

 

There are several steps to getting the most efficient settings and you need to have faith to see them all through

1. Disable any external controls (TRVs and Thermostats) by turning them up to max

2. Ensure that any room influence function on your heat pump controller is disabled

3. Balance the rads for equal room temperature, or the required differential between room temperatures, dont worry about absolute temperature

4.  Slowly turn down the WC curve until the house is just warm enough

You can do 2 and 3 together and you will need to iterate them over several days or up to a month to get it right.  When you change (3) you need to allow time to stabilise, initially you can change by a degree or two every 6-12 hours but once you get close you need to change by a degree every 24 hours.  When you change (2) you likelwise need to allow time to stabilise.

Before you do this you should read the section on WC in your manual, and make sure you understand which parameters to adjust and the principle of operation.  If you dont or are not confident (they can be quite confusing) please ask.

Whilst you are going through this process, comparing kWh from one day to another is futile, as the conditions (outdoor temperature) change, which affect the consumption more than any tweaks you do (the exception is if we get a period of several days with very steady temperatures, which does happen occasionally, but never when you are doing this type of adjustment!).   This means that you have to trust, maybe for several weeks, that lower flow temperature equals lower cost, until you have data over a range of conditions both before and after that enables you to make a genuine like for like comparison (which is still tricky).  If you aren't prepared to do this (which I can understand), then you cant possibly optimise your system.  However if your flow temperature is 44C you will almost certainly pay about 12-18% more for your heating like for like than if its set at 38C.

Ah Ok , so when I think I have balanced rads at say to 22c then set room stat above by 2 degrees and if it makes the room temp too warm turn down lockshields to suit required 22c?

Do I leave flow at 44c or continue to try 38 and open cold rads a little more?

Posted by: @alfapat

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Ah Ok , so when I think I have balanced rads at say to 22c then set room stat above by 2 degrees and if it makes the room temp too warm turn down lockshields to suit required 22c?

Our posts crossed so please read/re-read mine above also

In answer to the question, No, once rads are balanced leave them, and turn down the flow temperature/WC curve to get the right room temperature, with the room stat turned well up (I would say at least 5C above the desired temperature while you are doing the tweaking.  

Your end point is

rads balanced but with the LSVs as open as possible consistent with being balanced (which means that at least one should be fully open)

flow temperature/WC curve just sufficient to get thee rooms to right temperature with no influence from external controls/trvs/thermostats

OK , I have read the above . 

I have moved each programme for 24 hours to 2 degrees above disired slots as I am using Octopus Cosy , boosting on the three triple slots .

First room is Kitchen . Now correct me if I am wrong , if the room goes above desired 22 and the room stat programme is at 24 c Then adjust down? Presently LSV is 1.5 turns open , out of a possible 3 turns to fully open and , other end TRV , obviousl fully open. Leaving it there for the moment .

Posted by: @alfapat

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I have moved each programme for 24 hours to 2 degrees above disired slots as I am using Octopus Cosy , boosting on the three triple slots .

OK that complicates matters.  What make is your heat pump?  Can I presume that the TRVs are time-controlled, or are they basic TRVs?

I ask because some heat pumps have a time control that is ideal for Time of Use tarrifs like Cosy, others are more crude so you have to be a bit inventive (which is where your TRVs may yet come in).

 if the room goes above desired 22 and the room stat programme is at 24 c Then adjust the WC Curve down

TRV;S are standard manual ones . Samsung controller is connected by a Danfoss TP5000 Si It is on a 5/2 day/week program 4slots in 24 . I gues it can be slotted into two or one but I am trying to incorporate Octo's triple slot in Cosy .

 WC being Water Law on pump setting?

Sorry , I am trying ! 

Since 2.0pm in thread above Kitchen only reached 21.5 cso far.

Posted by: @alfapat

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 WC being Water Law on pump setting?

 

Water law.

No need to apologise, heating is complicated!

What exactly is the Danfoss programmed to do?  Is it switching the heat pump on and off on a timer or if not that then what exactly. 

Is there a reason you are not using the time programmer on the Samsung controller itself?  Have you got the controller manual/can you post the exact controller model number?

Can you describe the timing you have set up for heating and DHW, is the heating (for example) on only during the Cosy cheap rates, or something else.

Sorry for the questions, Im just trying to understand what you are doing/attempting to do so I dont mislead you!

The Danfoss is what I was presented with when the installers fled 8 yrs ago and then went into liquidation! Yes it does that

(on and off timing but mostly on)or supposed to. It doesnt always communicate but yes , you will see the icon in the controller window telling it is controlled by indoor thermostat. . DHW , I set up on Samsung controller Gen 5 I think. (YouTube Grahams heat pump vids) Attached is a pic of front cover . Not sure of a Name but it is very comprehensive and only by some magic can I put in field settings and dhw . I dont know how to use it for anything else, and I can't get any help locally.

 I try and use the slots presented in Cosy but its quite hopeless as HP 's cant operate that way so I try and boost a little in the periods given in tariff. The heating is on the whole time , its slightly down from Midnight by 1 degree but mostly 21-22  IE: its ON FROM 1.30 PM at 22 right through to 12 pm so I give it guns then at 1.30pm from when it sat at 21c to 22c. Dhw is operated separately off Samsung controller with Legionaires built in once a week.

Posted by: @alfapat

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 I try and use the slots presented in Cosy but its quite hopeless as HP 's cant operate that way so I try and boost a little in the periods given in tariff. The heating is on the whole time , its slightly down from Midnight by 1 degree but mostly 21-22  IE: its ON FROM 1.30 PM at 22 right through to 12 pm so I give it guns then at 1.30pm from when it sat at 21c to 22c.

OK makes sense

How do you achieve the above, is it by switching off immediately before the boost periods or something else.

@jamespa Its never off , its either on a degree behind or at the same temp moving to next period  , so I don't really think its and advantage Aye those Heat Pump Tariffs. .

Posted by: @alfapat

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Its never off , its either on a degree behind or at the same temp moving to next period 

Sorry but I dont understand how you achieve this with the timer and manual TRVs.  How do you tell it to be a degree behind, or is this just what it does because of random variations.

Posted by: @alfapat

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so I don't really think its and advantage Aye those Heat Pump Tariffs.

Unless you have a controller designed for the purpose (ie Homely at present) or one of the heat pumps with a more sophisticated inbuilt controller I think you are very likely right.