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Buffers, hot water and cooling

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(@prunus)
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I have a 13kW Grant ASHP, installed to the letter of Grant's instructions at the time.  50 litre buffer, 200 litre DHW cylinder, radiators (with TRVs which are never used), wired as classic S-plan.  After I rewired it to use the native ASHP controls since the installer followed the (very mistaken) Grant instructions, it works well for heating and hot water. The ASHP is maybe a bit oversized (deliberately, for noise reasons) but it seems to work fine - no short cycling. On mild days it'll run for a short time to heat the buffer and then circulate that heat for an hour or few around the house (ie the buffer is doing its job). It's set to run 'sniff' cycles every 20 minutes, ie run the internal pump to take the temperature of the buffer water by sending it past the outdoor unit's temperature probe and decide whether to turn on or not*. Here's a diagram:

image

(* I have actually wired a buffer thermistor so it can measure the buffer temperature directly, but it seems the only mode it'll use that is when it tries to keep the buffer at a constant temperature like a gas boiler - no weather compensation or anything, which isn't what I want. When I disable that mode the buffer temperature always reads 25C - seems using sniff cycles is the only option in more sensible modes.)

 

I'm pondering installing some fan coils for cooling.  Current thinking is to install them on a second zone (S-plan+) like an upside down underfloor heating system: UFH manifold, UFH actuators, and no valvegear in the fan coils (easier to manage condensation that way). Sketch:

image

Are there any reasons not to go with this plan?  I've tested the ASHP by switching the cables to the DHW and Z1 zones and running it in cooling mode - it makes a nice tank of chilled water (although the coldest water sinks to the bottom of the tank and the draw is at the top, so you can't actually chill the whole tank to 7C even if that's what it's making).

One thing I wondered was about the buffer when switching between DHW and cooling. If you've just made a tank of hot water for a shower then want to switch to cooling mode. What happens when you engage cooling is the unit runs its internal pump and the fan with no compressor to cool down the buffer circuit to outside temperature, and then runs the compressor to cool it below ambient.  But this is inefficient as every time you switch from hot water to cooling you have to cool that 50+ litres, and heat it again when you want hot water.  Typically I have it set to just run the hot water any time the water temperature gets a bit low, which can be at any point in the day. Let's assume that I just want a fit and forget option, ie I don't want to micromanage scheduling the hot water at 3am to avoid conflicts with cooling.  It seems less than ideal to have hot water and cooling fighting like this.

One option would be to move the DHW before the buffer, on the basis that there will always be a constant flow through the DHW circuit.  This would then move the buffer into the heating/cooling side only, and allow a switch between heating and cooling modes without having to shift the buffer water. Something like:

image

What would be the pros and cons of this approach?  I need to do the calculation of the ASHP's minimum flow against flow through the hot water cylinder coil, but let's assume that's ok. I'd have thought there would be enough heat in the DHW side to scavenge for defrost cycles when in DHW mode, and in heating mode there's still the buffer.  If one of the valves stuck presumably the ASHP would shut off to protect itself for lack of flow.  Any other things to watch out for, or reasons why this isn't a good idea?

Edit: maybe I'll need to move the expansion tank to before the Z1 and Z2 valves, to manage pressure when in cooling mode too?

This topic was modified 2 hours ago by Prunus

   
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downfield
(@downfield)
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Posted by: @prunus

One option would be to move the DHW before the buffer, on the basis that there will always be a constant flow through the DHW circuit. 

This is how my system is arranged, with a three port valve that switches the HP flow either directly to the DHW or to the buffer when in heating /cooling mode.

Mitsubishi Zubadan 14kW with Mixergy 210l DHW in 220m2 barn property. 24 solar panels = 9kWp with GivEnergy 5.0kW Hybrid inverter and 19kWh GivE batteries. Jaga Strada fan-assisted rads throughout. Landvac vacuum glazing/triple glazed windows.


   
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(@jamespa)
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Posted by: @prunus

One option would be to move the DHW before the buffer, on the basis that there will always be a constant flow through the DHW circuit.  This would then move the buffer into the heating/cooling side only, and allow a switch between heating and cooling modes without having to shift the buffer water

Definitely do this.  My dhw operates fine without a buffer or volumiser and your logic explains why.

 

Posted by: @prunus

Edit: maybe I'll need to move the expansion tank to before the Z1 and Z2 valves, to manage pressure when in cooling mode too?

Agree

 

If you are replumbing why not turn the buffer into a 2 port volumiser in the flow, lose the secondary pump and likely reduce your operating cost by 10-15%.  You have probably violated the warranty anyway so you might as well do the job properly.

 

This post was modified 51 minutes ago by JamesPa
This post was modified 50 minutes ago by JamesPa

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
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(@prunus)
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Topic starter  

Posted by: @jamespa

If you are replumbing why not turn the buffer into a 2 port volumiser in the flow, lose the secondary pump and likely reduce your operating cost by 10-15%.  You have probably violated the warranty anyway so you might as well do the job properly.

I wondered about that. Wouldn't that potentially cause issues with flow rates? I have no idea what the flow through the radiators is, and I thought the idea of hydraulic separation is that I don't need to care?

Also, I'm concerned about the situation with the fan coils if they are individually valved at the manifold (for reasons of wanting to minimise the places I'm pumping chilled water to minimise condensation), which means that if only one is turned on (quite likely because they make noise) then the flow rate will be limited to the pipe run through that coil only (16mm pipe, most likely).

I need to work out how to 'call for cold' but I was originally thinking that I can let the ASHP and buffer do their sniff cycles (ie they run 24/7 and fire up to cool the buffer when sensing it's warmed up too much), and then I am free to valve individual fan coils via the UFH actuator so they pull cold based on room demand (classic UFH room thermostat style, just with a bit of fan speed control too).

And why would you put the volumiser in the flow and not the return?  Is that intentionally to make the system slower to react?

 

This post was modified 27 minutes ago by Prunus

   
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