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(@amanda1)
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@transparent quick reply re: overflow - the overflow dates back to before my time (I have been here ten years but I think it us much older than that). I take it I can remedy the poor insulation thickness on the pipes leading from the pump? Can’t do anything about what you labelled as the pressure release pipe though.


   
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Transparent
(@transparent)
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The comment on the overflow was to indicate the opposite... that the installer shouldn't have placed an insulation join below it!
He's used a thinner/rugged insulation on the pipework which is flexible. But it's a type originally intended for solar-thermal panels which can reach temperatures above 100°C

 

The pipe diameter used for the pressure-relief line is odd.

It leads from the Tundish to the outside.

A tundish would normally have a larger diameter pipe on its exit than the entrance. It has to take the volume of water which has just expanded!
Since an unvented cylinder usually has a pressure/temp relief valve of 22mm, the most common tundish has a 28mm exit pipe.

In your case the installer has added a handful of sharp bends to get around the circulating pump!

It's good practice for a tundish exit pipe to be formed using a pipe-bending jig, which makes swept-bends of around 100mm diameter.
You really don't want constraints on a pipe run which has to act as a safety release system!

I'm not a qualified plumber, but I know that this is taught on apprenticeship courses.
To me, it just makes common sense.

This post was modified 12 months ago by Transparent

Save energy... recycle electrons!


   
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(@amanda1)
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@transparent Everwarm were the installers of the ASHP and the Cavity Wall Insulation. They have massive contracts with Home Energy Scotland in partnership with Local Authorities. Here are their accreditations https://www.everwarmgroup.com/about-us/accreditations and here’s a PDF detailing one of the big initiatives they have involvement with. https://www.scottishprocurement.scot/media/dxjphjso/spa_n8_frameworkguide_v1.pdf  The scheme my installation might be part of this. It’s the Moray ABS Energy Efficiency Scheme. 

Their reviews on Trustpilot are interesting, about 50:50 really positive/really negative. 

 


   
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(@amanda1)
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@transparent you see this is the problem for the installers’ victims…..comprehension - it all just looks like a load of pipes to me! Although, I was thinking of improving the insulation lagging. One of the things that some reviews talk about is that when they query something with the installers, they are told, you are getting all these thousands of £££ of work for nothing and you are complaining??!!!…..


   
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(@kev-m)
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Posted by: @amanda1

@transparent thanks - I am assuming the compressor is inside the Monobloc? But is the condenser in there as well? What is the small red cylinder for?

IMG 4750

Never mind the pipework and lagging, who decided to put the FTC control panel so close to the floor?  That is, to say the least, a bit inconvenient.  Fortunately it should also be easy to move as the cable it comes with is quite long.

 

This post was modified 12 months ago by Kev M

   
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(@fazel)
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@amanda1 this will help you visualize the refrigerant flow in the Heat pump and the water flow. 


   
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(@amanda1)
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@kev-m you said it! Backbreaking - I managed to get down to check the summary of settings and change the legionella settings but then I thought I was doomed and would never get up again….😂 All part of their scheme to prevent me from changing the settings. So they didn’t get call backs.


   
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Transparent
(@transparent)
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Posted by: @amanda1

this is the problem for the installers’ victims…..comprehension - it all just looks like a load of pipes to me! Although, I was thinking of improving the insulation lagging. One of the things that some reviews talk about is that when they query something with the installers, they are told, you are getting all these thousands of £££ of work for nothing and you are complaining??!!!…..

I have heard similar sentiments from a great many 'victims' as you put it!

Heat pump installation is in its early days, and similar in many ways to the heyday of 'double-glazing salesmen'.

 

1: None of this work is actually 'free'.

In most cases a mixture of funds are amalgamated, but ultimately these schemes are paid for through taxation and higher energy bills. It's using our money.

GB Energy Suppliers are required by Ofgem to add a levy to our bills which must be used for 'energy efficiency measures', trials of new technology and public information strategies.

The levy accounts for around 8% of electricity bills, with a slight bias in favour of higher energy users.
The greater burden falls on those with low consumption and high standing charges.

Reports get written and passed to government, who then put out statements to demonstrate their (our) 'investment' in low-carbon technology.

 

2: The Scottish Procurement Alliance, Framework Guide, for which you provided the link, has this opening sentence:

This SPA framework was developed to provide an efficient, value for money procurement
route for specialist energy efficiency projects. The framework provides organisations who
are fully or partially publicly funded with a compliant route to market to source pre-qualified
specialist suppliers who can provide a variety of carbon-reduction measures...

Do you think that's true?

  • Are the ASHPs installed for you and your neighbours 'value for money'?
  • Has your system been designed and installed in a manner which is 'energy efficient'?
  • Is your installation 'compliant' with the regulations?
  • What you think of the 'pre-qualification' criteria which your installer was measured against?

Your installer, Everwarm, are one of only two companies approved to the higher tier of the SPA Framework.
What does that suggest to you about the others?

 

3: At its heart, your SPA Scheme was instigated by elected politicians, many/most of whom have a genuine desire to help the public with energy efficiency.

They are further motivated by the disasters being wreaked by Climate Change, which they see daily on TV news.

Few have any idea of the underlying engineering/physics for a Heat Pump installation...
... and even fewer will ever get to hear from constituents like yourself.

 

4: Comprehension. Ofgem have been aware for years that lack of public knowledge/understanding is holding up the effective roll-out of better energy technology.
They have made funding available for anyone who has a way to overcome this deficiency.

This Forum has about a dozen members, mostly (retired) engineers, who understand enough of the technical background to diagnose faulty installations, check system operation against specifications, and identify where these government-led strategies are failing.

We are unfunded volunteers, sometimes lacking sufficient tact or eloquence in what we write, and upsetting those who we are genuinely trying to help. I apologise for that.

A few of us have spent precious time cultivating energy-related dialogue with Councillors and MPs.
We are beginning to be heard... but too often our comments are still being disregarded.

Later today I will respond to my MP, who has received a letter from a Government Minister.
That Minister has made written statements which contradict scientific and mathematical evidence on an energy-related matter.
Misleading an MP is very serious, whether or not they are of the same political flavour.

I don't wish to be a lone voice, and I would urge you to communicate with your own Councillors (at Planning Authority level) and Douglas Ross MP.
They need to be made aware of what has happened in your case.

 

5: Some of us actually have solutions to the way in which Heat Pumps are being improperly installed.
But the Dept of Energy (DESNZ) do not yet appreciate why Government strategy towards Net Zero is failing.

They intend setting up a website which is to be the de-facto authority on energy-related information.
A public consultation took place last month, and we discussed it here on the forum with one of the participants.
See the topic What do we need to know before installing heat pumps?

Do you think a 'fact based' Government website is likely to overcome the lack of trust being shown by the public?

This post was modified 12 months ago by Transparent

Save energy... recycle electrons!


   
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(@amanda1)
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@transparent Hi - A ‘fact based’ government website would be hardly likely to inspire trust on my part, but that’s because there are many possible permutations of one fact depending on the context.

But the lack of trust on the part of the public is often a function of the demographic of those most in need of energy saving measures, this insistence on everything being online is a huge obstacle, seriously. I know quite a few people - both in my family and locally - who are so technologically illiterate that they talk about “the computers” and “we don’t have any of those computer things”. “I don’t do the internet”. “I don’t use email”. etc etc. Yes there are many people over 70 or 80 who are technologically savvy and have embraced the digital age. But people of my now deceased mother’s generation - in their 80s and older - are often scared of computers. They fear viruses, scams (unsurprisingly) and they are scared they will “press the wrong button” or something… they are increasingly excluded from the very things that will help them. It’s a combination of social and technological exclusion.

Which is a biiiiiggg problem, because the guys who will be entrusted with “explaining” stuff to the untrusting public are likely to be in their twenties, thirties and forties, and think that QR codes and web sites, whatsapp and instagram are the way to go. They probably have never bought a stamp in their lives.

I personally preferred my storage heaters to this - they were simple and reliable and controllable by me without my having a Masters degree in ASHPs. But they were draining my finances, I was in Fuel Poverty actually, and they had to go and I stumbled upon this scheme during an internet trawl. It offered me total funding for the ASHP and Cavity Wall insulation. But I only found out about it because I looked online. 

The government would do well to address the issue of method of use of ASHP systems in their website “What do we need to know”. And a TV and mail drop (proper official looking letters not leaflets) campaign would be of use as well as an internet campaign. Instead of all those ads for cremation services and funeral plans, avoiding prostate cancer, incontinence pads and mobility scooters and care homes, the government could instead patronize the elderly by getting Parkinson and Carol Vorderman and Alan Titchmarsh etc etc to do slow careful dumbed down explanations of the advantages of ASHPs.

Scotland has the highest percentage of people in fuel poverty in the UK, I believe, and the Scottish government are aware of this. Which is why they are offering bigger grants than the Westminster government and they are really pushing this energy saving agenda. Significantly, if you are a landlord, as councils are, of course, your properties have to have at least an EPC rating of C or above by 2025. So it’s essential for them to take these measures.

When the dust has settled (literally….) on my cavity wall insulation I will probably write to Dougie about the total lack of communication between the three agencies responsible for delivering this ABS scheme, and the fact that none of them seems to know what the other is doing with the millions of pounds of money being invested in it. Nobody is monitoring the quality of these installations on the ground. No paperwork is being exchanged between Moray Council, Home Energy Scotland (the commissioners of this work) and the beneficiaries, the Installed. It’s all out of my reach. THIS is the ONLY paperwork I have…..no confirmatory emails even.

IMG 4995

 

 


   
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Transparent
(@transparent)
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Let me just pick two sentences from different paragraphs of what @amanda1 wrote

Posted by: @amanda1

if you are a landlord, as councils are, of course, your properties have to have at least an EPC rating of C or above by 2025.

....

Nobody is monitoring the quality of these installations on the ground.

We can therefore assume that those EPC ratings will also have to be achieved through a paper exercise.

There are insufficient qualified energy assessors, operating to PAS2035, to inspect all rental properties by the 2025 deadline.
Such surveys are expensive - around £450 each.

Thus the Scottish Government won't actually be achieving rental properties with EPC of C and above.
They'll be creating pieces of paper which make that claim. That's different.

If heat-pump installers had to prove the efficiency and effectiveness of their work, then there's a reasonable chance that standards could be enforced.
But with no evidence and no inspections, we're simply throwing government money into a pile of leaky pipes.

The sooner 'Dougie' hears of this, the better.

 

This post was modified 12 months ago by Transparent

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(@amanda1)
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Posts: 53
 

@transparent An Inspector Called out of the blue (from the organisation overseeing the ABS EES scheme) yesterday to check the Cavity Wall Insulation removal before signing off for it before the new cav wall insulation could be put in.  He didn’t sign it off…yet…I told him about the concerns with insulation of the pipes for the ASHP and he said he had also noted down things about that. The things you had mentioned. 

Re EPCs it’s not the Scottish government who will be creating the EPCs, its the landlords who will have to get them in place. Many second home owners and holiday home owners in this area are selling up.

Many thanks for your advice on insulation - I have been checking out Armaflex online and will be buying sufficient to reinforce the existing pipe insulation. 

 


   
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Transparent
(@transparent)
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Excellent news about the inspector! Wow!!

Start keeping a diary. You'll need it later.

 

Yes, I understood about the EPCs being the responsibility of the landlords.
But I still think it's unachievable.

A government can make as many policy statements as they like, and impose regulations that are ever more strict...
... but that doesn't actually change the buildings' energy ratings.

A landlord could answer a questionaire about the fabric of a house, and tick the box to declare that it has a heat-pump of a certain rated output.
But if the quality of installation is typically the same as shown in your photos, then the EPC calculation won't be correct.

 

Pipe insulation: Do look at the YouTube videos from Armacell about how to cut, join and fit their products.
You don't have to use their particular glue. I've successfully used generic contact adhesives.
But the cost difference isn't great.

I am a hands-on self-builder.
When I make suggestions like this, it's because I've actually done it myself!

Save energy... recycle electrons!


   
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