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How would you rate the design, installation and efficiency of your heat pump system? Poll is created on Nov 06, 2022

  
  
  
  
  
  

[Sticky] Rate the quality of your heat pump design and installation

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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @mike-h

Posted by: @technogeek

and your heat pump is further sub-cycling due to it being on setting 4 (3mins on, 7 mins off).

@technogeek FSV 2091/2092 Setting 4 causes the water pump to run 3mins on and 7 mins off, not the heat pump. However, I have no idea why Samsung provides three different options for how long the water pump runs when the water law discharged water temperature turns the compressor off.

  • setting 2 water pump turns off after 1 minute
  • setting 3 water pump stays on
  • setting 4 water pump runs for 3mins and then off for 7 mins and repeat

If you are listening solely to the water pump, then setting 4 may make it seem that the heat pump is cycling, but unless the compressor restarts, this is not cycling as I understand it. Observing the smart meter makes it clear when the compressor stops and starts.

Setting 2 is possibly used to get the remaining thermal energy from the heat exchanger within the heat pump after the compressor has stopped.

Setting 3 may be to extend the period between cycling during milder weather conditions, since the thermistors within the heat pump which initiate the stopping and starting of the compressor will cool at a slower rate if the warmed water within the heating system is being recirculated. Obviously this may reduce efficiency since the water will be cooled as it passes through the outside unit and the water pump will use more energy.

Setting 4 may be to prevent the water from freezing if an overnight setback is employed and the compressor is off for a lengthy period of time.

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@technogeek 

Again, many thanks for your excellent advice , I appreciate it!

 

Cycling :

Since Cutting the Cycling Rate from 6 per hour, i.e. a 10 minute period with a 4 minute Run time to 3 per hour my Cycle Time having increased to ~20 minutes with a Run time of ~6 minutes.

Run times 24

 Run Times over the last 150 days showing the sudden improvement since reducing the Thermostat Cycling Rate to 3 per hour.

I will take some time to measure the effects of the Thermostat Cycle Rate change.

However, the Average COP over the last 150 days is 2.97.

My Heat Pump is followed by Two motors , a Heat exchanger, a 50 litre Buffer tank and a forest of pipes with losses of circa 25%..29 %

The Actual Average COP as measured at the start of the Radiator circuit is  1.98 over the last 150 days.

The COP and the COP at the start of the radiator circuit with the associated losses over the last 150 days are :

COP REAL COP APR
LOSSES APR 24

 Where the blue line gives the COP output from the Heat Pump itself and the Red line gives the COP at the input to my Radiator circuit.

Measurements were here made with a Sharky Water Power meter fitted at the start of the radiator circuit. Hot Water was not used.

I am hopeful that the Honeywell Thermostat Cycling Rate reduction will improve matters.........hopeful but realistic given my Heat Pump  "installation" was "started" exactly two years ago.

 

ian

 

 

 

 

 

 


   
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TechnoGeek
(@technogeek)
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@mike-h I cannot speak for other Samsung models but I have a Samsung Gen 6 controller connected to a 12Kw HT Quiet. Standing in my plant room observing the behaviour of option 4 (#2091/#2092) the entire system starts up, runs for 3 minutes and completely shuts down for 7 mins, ie Water pump, compressor and the controller goes into standby, then the entire system fires up again for 3 minutes.

It was not playing nicely with my thermostat so slaved it with option 3 and from a control point of view is much better 🙂

 

Regards


   
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TechnoGeek
(@technogeek)
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@iantelescope I briefly switched my system on yesterday to give you some comparison figures. In this warm weather my system ran for 2 cycles of 5 mins each for the one hour it was on. The only reason it ran for 5 mins is because the thermostat minimum run time is set to 5 mins otherwise it probably would have run an even shorter time per cycle.

The problem is, trying to set up a system at this time of year is near impossible requiring educated guess work etc. Once we have a sensible control configuration improving the hydraulic performance would be the next step in my opinion. I also think starting a new separate thread to discuss this would at this point be a good idea as we have seriously gone off topic 🙁

Hope that helps

Regards

This post was modified 1 week ago by TechnoGeek

   
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(@mike-h)
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Posted by: @technogeek

@mike-h I cannot speak for other Samsung models but I have a Samsung Gen 6 controller connected to a 12Kw HT Quiet. Standing in my plant room observing the behaviour of option 4 (#2091/#2092) the entire system starts up, runs for 3 minutes and completely shuts down for 7 mins, ie Water pump, compressor and the controller goes into standby, then the entire system fires up again for 3 minutes.

My apologies! That behaviour is quite different to my Gen 6 12kW Samsung and to what my manual suggests. Option 0 - just using the thermostat in the wired remote controller seems to work well for me.


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@technogeek 

Again ,many thanks for your advice , and your examples.

 

Samsung Answer please!

Could Samsung please  explain the purpose of the Water Pump Options 1, 2 or 3 of the Samsung 2091/2092 and 2093 controls!

Could Samsung please  explain the Pulse Width Modulation Motor Control compared to the AC Motor control option?

 

Thermostat Cycling?:

Like yourself I have been in some difficulty in measuring the effect of the Change of Cycle Period during this warm weather.

However, The COP has  , so far, seems considerably improved.

My Cycle Period has  doubled  to circa 20 minutes with a Run Time of circa 6 minutes!

The Losses , and the COP as measured at the start of my Radiator circuit have however  remained poor.

 

 

Measurements in Hot Weather?

My Sharky, in water,  Power Meter, with a round off to 1 ( one) kWh is a pain when my Samsung has a round OFF of 0.1 kWh and my Arduino CT Transformer 0.01 kWh !

In Hot weather, therefore,  All measurements become very Noisy in hot weather.

 

Samsung 2091/2092 Water Pump options 1, 2 or 3?

I have been aware of the effects of the Water Pump options on cycling for some 18 months.

A visiting French Samsung Engineer when asked what was the purpose of the Water Pump options replied , with disarming honesty " that he did no Know the purpose of the Water Pump options 1 to 4 ..........................................but that he thought Not Much!".

Could Samsung please  explain the purpose of the Water Pump Options 1, 2 or 3 or 4 of the Samsung 2091/2092 and 2093 controls!

 

Samsung Pulse Width Modulation Option ,Case 1 or the AC motor , Case 2 Option :

The visiting French Samsung Engineer spent a considerable time explaining the older case 2 , AC Pump motor control.

When asked to explain the case 1, Inverter Pump motor control he again, with disarming honesty declared that "He did not understand the INV Pump option !

He declared that "Only the Germans truly understand how the Pulse Width Modulation Motor Control really works!".

My Samsung has BOTH options installed, but the INV pulse width is corrupted !!

 

Samsung Plumbing:

I agree with you I would need to open another topic about the plumbing of my Samsung Heat Pump.

However, I have lost all confidence in my "installer," the MCS and the NIC , not forgetting the politicians and the  experts .

 

NIC / MCS Wash their hands

The NIC have said that , for me , my installer having been "STUCK OFF for the third Time , Nothing can now be done!"

 

 

 

 

 


   
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TechnoGeek
(@technogeek)
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@mike-h sadly due to installation and system design (bivalent system) constraints I have had to use an external thermostat which has the (#2091/#2092) options 1 to 4 to choose from.

One day when leccy is permanently cheaper and oil has got too expensive I will be going heat pump only. For the moment I run (automatically) the oil boiler at times when the heat pump becomes uneconomical, usely at an outside temp of below 5C at the moment.

Regards


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@mike-h 

Water motor controls:

For clarity, are you using the internal Samsung Thermistor at the rear of the LCD panel, i.e. 2093 ?

What Pump motor options are you using under 2093?

Are you using the Pulse Width Modulation Motor control , case 1

OR

AC motor Relay control,  case 2?

This post was modified 6 days ago by Mars

   
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(@iantelescope)
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@technogeek

Could I ask a , for me , some potentially embarrassing questions about Water Motor speed control on Samsung Heat Pumps?

Q1: Should I use the continuous Pulse Width Modulation Control, case 1 in the installation manual ?

Q2: Should I use the Binary Switching , and therefore noisy , AC motor control, case 2 in the installation manual?

Q3: Given that my Heat Pump uses Field bit 2091 ON  with Water Law 1 , should I use the resulting Weather compensation screen & Control?

SNV82010

Q4: Should I use Field bit 2093 ON with 2091/2092 OFF with the resulting control and display of Water Temperature.?

Without Weather  Compensation 1

Which do you use?

I am confused , does the 2093 ON , 2091/2092  OFF stop  Weather compensation Control?

My visiting French Samsung engineer was unable to answer,  these , and numerous other questions!

C'est la vie.................

Perhaps he is correct in saying that "only the Germans Really understand Samsung Heat Pumps!"

This post was modified 6 days ago by Mars

   
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TechnoGeek
(@technogeek)
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@iantelescope there is no embarrassing questions!

Posted by: @iantelescope

Q1: Should I use the continuous Pulse Width Modulation Control, case 1 in the installation manual ?

Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) pumps are a special kind of water pump that has a control signal that enables the Samsung controller to vary the pump speed to maintain a specified delta T across your emitter circuit. By changing the pump speed, you change the flow rate and hence the heat power being delivered to the emitters. This is used in conjunction with the weather compensation if I am correct.

Posted by: @iantelescope

Q2: Should I use the Binary Switching , and therefore noisy , AC motor control, case 2 in the installation manual?

This is for the use of a fixed speed pump which is NOT interchangeable with a PWM pump. Secondly the terminal this pump is connected to can only supply 500mA max therefore the Samsung controller MUST control the pump through a relay.

I am not sure what you hope to achieve but unless you have deep knowledge of the required flow rates, pump head pressures etc for your system I would strongly recommend you leave it alone as you may even make the situation 10x worse for yourself.

Posted by: @iantelescope

Q3: Given that my Heat Pump uses Field bit 2091 ON  with Water Law 1 , should I use the resulting Weather compensation screen & Control?

If you are referring to the screen in your photograph, then that is not the weather compensation screen. What I am seeing there is you have added 1.2C offset to whatever the water law target temperature has been calculated to be. This offset value should be zero (0.0C). Your water law parameters are configured using field options #201* and #202*. The offset is for temporarily increasing your flow temp hence heat input to the building if you feel cold but return to 0.0C afterwards.

Posted by: @iantelescope

Q4: Should I use Field bit 2093 ON with 2091/2092 OFF with the resulting control and display of Water Temperature.?

The internal thermostat for the Samsung is located within the control panel in your picture. If you use #2093 and disable #2091/#2092 you will need to have that control panel rewired to the same location as your Honeywell thermostat otherwise it is not going to monitor the correct temperature e.g your lounge.

 

Posted by: @iantelescope

Which do you use?

I am confused , does the 2093 ON , 2091/2092  OFF stop  Weather compensation Control?

As far as I know no, as long as either option 2, 3 or 4 are selected for #2093. As I have not got this arrangement I could be incorrect in my information about how it works.

I have attached a bunch of pictures with my various settings in the hope this will help.

20240607 163738
20240607 163817
20240607 163905
20240607 164021
20240607 164056
20240607 164220

 

This post was modified 7 days ago by TechnoGeek

   
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(@iantelescope)
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@technogeek 

Hi , again, many many thanks for your patience and practical input.

Like yourself, My background is also in electronics/Electrical.

I am far happier with Electronics than plumbing............

Pulse Width Modulation, PWM and Delta_T across the Radiator circuit:

I agree with you that the PWM motor  system is designed to set and control the Delta_T across the Radiator circuit.

Heat Exchanger:

My System has a heat Exchanger fitted to isolate the Heat Pump from the Radiator Circuit.

Any changes in pressure and flow rate in the Radiator circuit do not affect the Primary water circuit pressure or flow rate.

Only changes in Temperature are transmitted between the Primary Heat Pump and the secondary Radiator circuit.

TWO PWM Controlled motors:

With two water circuits separated by a Heat Exchanger my system has TWO PWM Motors fitted.

As supplied , neither PWM cable input to these PWM motors was initially supplied.

On connection the Primary PWM Motor signal , supplied by the control board was :

PWM HP OUTPUT 1

Notice that the PWM Signal, although present, was offset by some 6 volts , and  incapable of driving the GRundfoss PWM Motor  on the primary water circuit.

To test both PWM Motors I generated a PWM signal from a  Arduino :

PWM ARDUINO HP OUTPUT 1

Both PWM Motors performed flawlessly . The PWM Motors have no faults.

The Pulse Width Signal was generated by measuring the Delta_T , the Temperature Difference between the primary Heat Exchanger ports .

The Primary Delta_T was measured , and controlled , using a pair of DS 18B20 Temperature Sensors connected, as inputs,  to the Arduino.

Heat Exchanger Difference Temperature

The Secondary Delta_T was, initially,  fixed at a Pulse Width of 100 us.

I am trying to  optimise  the Delta_T on the secondary circuit by varying the PWM Motor signal to both motors.

Hope you have followed my , probably incoherent , Technical authorship!

This post was modified 4 days ago by Mars

   
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(@iantelescope)
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@technogeek 

Again, many thanks for your help and patience, I really do appreciate your experience .

Samsung Water Law:

I use the Thermostat Control Screen:

With  Weather Compensation 1

With this display  I can set the Temperature Offset of the Weather compensation Thermostat by +/-5 C:

WL1 A

 Increasing  the Thermostat Temperature when requiring more Power during Winter Cold.

Decreasing the Thermostat Temperature when limiting the Electricity bill!.

A delicate balance, speed of room temperature increase  against economy.

Winter Water Law Adjustments:

During cold Winter days , even setting the Thermostat Offset  to it's maximum , +5 C ,my house remains cold until late in the evening. 

With lower Scottish Temperatures I have permanently decreased the 201*  Weather compensation, High , Ordinate to -5 C. ( Samsung's recommendation).

With lower Scottish Temperatures,  during Dec and Jan , I  increase the 202*  Weather compensation Low Co-ordinate  to +35. C.

With lower Scottish Temperatures,  during Dec and Jan , I  increase the 202*  Weather compensation High  Co-ordinate to +50. C.

Even with these Winter settings the Heat Pump is often unable to supply enough Power to heat my house in a reasonable time, and I must use a 1.5 Kw backup Room heater.

Please accept my apologies , in advance, for my "Technical authorship".

 

This post was modified 2 days ago by Mars

   
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