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Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)
Last Post by Mike Patrick 3 years ago
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 Mike Patrick
(@mike-patrick)
Honorable Member Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 183
Topic starter 23/02/2023 10:16 am  

As documented in an earlier post I recently had to replace a leaking volumiser tank in my heating system.

Having supplied the volumiser myself (£250) I'm now querying the £798 (inc VAT) invoice from the heating engineer (plumber?) for installing it. I think this is excessive for the work involved and have asked for a detailed breakdown of the charges. So far I'm told that parts were £250 (A few feet of copper pipe, a couple of isolation valves, a pressure relief valve and some foam pipe insulation). I know inflation is high but surely OTT? The engineer, with his trainee, were on site for 3 hours maximum - £150 per hour, is that typical?

Am I right to question these figures, or are these within a normal range?

Mike


Grant Aerona HPID10 10kWh ASHP


   
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Mars
 Mars
(@editor)
Illustrious Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 3690
24/02/2023 4:46 pm  

@mike-patrick, I would deem that very expensive indeed. We're in mid-Wales and most plumbers around us charge £25-£50 per hour.  It may vary from area to area, but unless your plumber is from Belgravia, I think that's on the pricey side.


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 Mike Patrick
(@mike-patrick)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 183
Topic starter 24/02/2023 5:17 pm  

@editor Thanks - its helpful to have my own sense confirmed.

Mike


Grant Aerona HPID10 10kWh ASHP


   
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Mars
 Mars
(@editor)
Illustrious Member Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 3690
25/02/2023 9:06 am  

@mike-patrick, on a semi-related note, we called around yesterday looking for a tradesman to undertake a smallish project. One of the guy’s responses on the phone to us, based on the scope of work, was that he was “chasing the money” and this day-long project was too small for him. We were happy to pay his day rate, but he wanted a larger project to work on and declined. He is local to us, so no travel involved, and I thought that a day rate is a day rate irrespective of the size of project. I must be missing something.


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 iancalderbank
(@iancalderbank)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 643
25/02/2023 6:48 pm  

that's outrageous costs on both parts and labour. the parts will be about 20 quid each for 28mm isolators, 10 quid for a PRV (depending exactly what type maybe vary a bit) . 28mm copper is about 10 pounds a meter. pipe insulation 3 pounds a meter at most if its internal grade .  ask him for itemised receipts. 

labour, my local guy charges 60 quid for a 1 hr boiler service, and thats in a prosperous area of the south east. if there's a trainee there thats up to the plumber, but you don't pay for the trainee's time as well. even if its 100 quid an hour, you should be at 350+vat at most.

another reason why I'm really glad I've learned to do my own plumbing.


My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
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 Mike Patrick
(@mike-patrick)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 183
Topic starter 25/02/2023 9:41 pm  

@iancalderbank Thanks for confirming my own misgivings. Looks like the plumber and I will be having a further conversation.

 

Mike


Grant Aerona HPID10 10kWh ASHP


   
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 Mike Patrick
(@mike-patrick)
Honorable Member Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 183
Topic starter 06/03/2023 11:08 am  

Have now got the itemised bill from the plumber (it's standard when you get a car serviced, so why not plumbers?). Among other items he's charging me for his mate's time as well (9 man hours in total for the two of them!). He's even billed me for the time he spent trying to source a replacement part.

There's £70 for glycol. This was to top up the system, not completely fill it. That seems expensive too. Any thoughts?

Serparately I'm looking at replacing the insulation around the exposed pipes running from the ASHP. After 6 years it's beginning to wear out. Is this the correct insulation anyway or is there a better product I should use?

 

Mike

image

 


Grant Aerona HPID10 10kWh ASHP


   
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Abernyte
 Abernyte
(@abernyte)
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Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 244
06/03/2023 11:28 am  

I redid the insulation on the external pipes this winter for the same reasons, a bit tatty and showing UV damage. I used Armaflex Tuffcoat class 0. It has a waterproof vinyl coating and is rated for below and above ground use. Fitted 25mm wall for 28mm pipe and it retailed at £35/mtr, so a bit pricy. It looks like it will last and it certainly is doing the job!



   
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 iancalderbank
(@iancalderbank)
Noble Member Contributor
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 643
06/03/2023 11:39 am  

@mike-patrick insulation,  I'm fitting my external pipes with this stuff right now https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/renewable-heat-accessories/Primary_pro_28m_1_meter

its very stiff though may not work on the bends that you appear to have.


My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
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 iancalderbank
(@iancalderbank)
Noble Member Contributor
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 643
06/03/2023 11:40 am  

@mike-patrick I know nothing of glycol costs, but I'm sure there are products with google-able prices.

If it was me I'd refuse to pay the mates time  unless it was a genuine two man job. If it was a one man job and  the trainee was brought along to learn on the job, fetch and carry etc - thats not something you pay for in a T&M based price model. if its fixed price and the trainee comes anyway then you don't care.

.....and then find someone else for the next piece of work as he probably won't want you as a customer any more anyway......


My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
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 Mike H
(@mike-h)
Reputable Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 200
07/03/2023 8:51 am  

Posted by: @iancalderbank
↑

@mike-patrick insulation,  I'm fitting my external pipes with this stuff right now https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/renewable-heat-accessories/Primary_pro_28m_1_meter

its very stiff though may not work on the bends that you appear to have.

Dave Smith who makes this insulation is very helpful and has some excellent videos. The sealant is an essential part of the process and also the special fixation brackets which fit around the outside of the insulation, not around the pipe. 

 



   
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 iancalderbank
(@iancalderbank)
Noble Member Contributor
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 643
07/03/2023 9:07 am  

@mike-h yep, I have the sealant and the special brackets. interesting technique to learn fitting the pipes without using any pipe clamps only insulation clamps.


My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs


   
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