there is nothing wrong with this as long as the system under load can run continuously, which mine does when it is cold.
Can you be sure it is running continuously? Your chart only shows temps, not amps which is the easiest way of knowing whether your system is running or not (as in zero amps means it is off). The wired controller has amps if you can't get at them any other way. I suspect that during the periods of falling temps in your chart the amps will be zero, meaning your system, or rather compressor, is off.
Whether cycling matters (as in is detrimental, and if so, by how much) is another unresolved debate.
It really fills me with confidence, if after designing and installing systems containing a PHE, the installers then cannot even connect the pipework for the correct contraflow operation. 🙄
Can confirm, they (Freedom) said I could take out the LLH with no impact as long as it was done by someone they work with.
No negative impacts at all from what I've seen
Out of interest how do you get yours to to run with LWT below 35? Mine refuses to go lower.
Phil
I would suggest that you check that your WC curve is set to position 9 and not one of the fixed curves. If the WC curve is in position 9 then check the actual settings.
It is indeed set to curve 9. If I try to manually adjust the temperature WC will be turned off.
Can you be sure it is running continuously? Your chart only shows temps, not amps which is the easiest way of knowing whether your system is running or not (as in zero amps means it is off)
Yes, I have continuous Energy monitoring of all my electric circuits.
It really fills me with confidence, if after designing and installing systems containing a PHE, the installers then cannot even connect the pipework for the correct contraflow operation.
I think much of the problem has to do with Freedom's modus operandi. They basically sell kits with a 'Quick Installation Manual' which sort of tells you where they are headed. Others more disingenuous than me might say it should really be called a get rich quick manual. It runs to 20 pages, has lots of white space, and some pictures. Here's the heating and hot water schematic from a 2022 version of the manual with the infamous kiss your warranty goodbye if you omit the hydraulic separation warning:
Given this, is it really that surprising that a subcontracted jobbing plumber gets things the wrong way round?
Midea 14kW (for now...) ASHP heating both building and DHW
@filipe "Out of interest how do you get yours to to run with LWT below 35? Mine refuses to go lower."
I have my Midea weather comp set as 45 C LWT at Ambient of -2 C, and 25 C LWT at Ambient of 15 C. Whilst it let me set the 25 C LWT it actually never goes below 30 C LWT. I did email Freedom HP about it some time ago but got a cursory response and I haven't pursued it with them since.
For clarity I set my current weather comp profile in early December (so data before that is not applicable to this topic). After that point you can see the LWT bottoming out at 30 C. All this data comes from the Midea App, so should be treated with caution.
IMO the idea you need to keep the ASHP running as long as possible at really low LWTs may not be the best approach. At 30 deg LWT and a delta T of 5, the radiators are going to be an average of 27.5 deg. I know the theory but in practice that's not going to make much difference in a room being heated by radiators to 21 deg. (ufh may be different; I know little about that). At 25 deg LWT it surely isn't worth bothering.
ASHPs have an overhead just to run them and, cycling apart, that will drag the efficiency down at these very low LWTs. It may be better to run the ASHP hotter but for less time.
ASHPs have an overhead just to run them and, cycling apart, that will drag the efficiency down at these very low LWTs. It may be better to run the ASHP hotter but for less time.
Heresy, of course, but very interesting heresy. It is in effect what my proposed setback and boost approach will do, which means I too am probably a heretic. We'd better be on the lookout for the Inquisition.
Midea 14kW (for now...) ASHP heating both building and DHW
Isn't @grahamh the founder of freedom? I see he is featured on blog posts and videos on here, no involvement in actually helping people? Just money making?
This Forum isn't anti-commercialisation.
In order to take the best ideas forward it is essential that they create income.
It's a huge jump from there to imply that such companies aren't helping people. On what basis are you suggesting that is the case?
To implement solutions to Climate Change and the Energy Crisis, we need more companies who develop green technologies and offer them for sale.
I fully agree that more companies are required within the renewable heating sector, but I also feel that it is equally, if not more important, to avoid the 'never mind the quality, feel the width' approach. Whilst there are poor designers and installers within the heating industry, with no one weeding them out, and their primary concern being to chase the grant money rather than do a good job at a reasonable price, I do not see the situation improving. I am more than happy for someone to prove me wrong.
I also welcome forum members recommending their installer, but think it inappropriate for installers to use the forum to recommend themselves.
Over the past couple of years I have helped a number of members improve their badly designed and/or installed systems, which in an ideal World should not be necessary. I do believe some of those members were Freedom customers.
I fully agree that more companies are required within the renewable heating sector, but I also feel that it is equally, if not more important, to avoid the 'never mind the quality, feel the width' approach. Whilst there are poor designers and installers within the heating industry, with no one weeding them out, and their primary concern being to chase the grant money rather than do a good job at a reasonable price, I do not see the situation improving. I am more than happy for someone to prove me wrong.
I thought MCS was supposed to ensure that the industry has high standards, or at least that's what people keep telling me. Am I wrong or is it failing?
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
Whilst there are poor designers and installers within the heating industry, with no one weeding them out,
Which is the point being made at the start of this particular topic.
BEIS seem to have used the MCS route to "make sure things are properly implemented".
The new DESNZ are wanting to create a one-stop website, but thus far have not deviated from the way in which MCS are running the show. Their current approach is failing.
Time to write to my MP again, methinks.
This post was modified 2 years ago 3 times by Transparent
@transparent In another thread the following set of measures emerged (with a fair level of agreement) to open up the market and release MCS from its stranglehold. MCS is clearly failing to drive up market standards, and has created a monster of a scheme which is orientated towards process not outcomes, which of course perfectly protects the installer but does not help the customer. Time to lower the barriers to entry (created by the Government which appears to assume MCS is fine but makes others jump through hoops to the extent that nobody has) to give others a chance! Of course there will still be bad installers, but at least good people, who may well be much better trained through one of the schemes that focus on design education and the necessary engineering skills, can then compete on a level playing field.
1.Permitted Developmentrulesin relation to air source heat pumps amended to remove all reference to MCS. The noise condition only inMCS-020to be incorporated into the PD rules (without reference to the spreadsheet being completed by an MCS engineer)
This will address the problem that, as things stand today, only systems designed and installed by an MCS contractor are Permitted Development and, as such, import into planning rules engineering considerations which are well outside the scope of planning.
2. Permitted Developmentrulesin relation to air source heat pumps amended to allow 2(?) ASHPs provided that the combined noise meets the noise condition (and the other PD rules are met in relation to both)
This will allow a combination of A2A and A2W heat pumps, or other two pump installation, without material negative effect on the built environment
3. Grant support under the BUS or similar to be available wherever a HP is installed to replace a gas boiler (used for domestic heating and the primary source of same) by a contractor accredited under NICIEC, NAPIT, GasSafe (list of organisations to be expanded), without regard to MCS or other complex design rules.Boiler removal part to be by a GasSafe engineer who signs off that its was previously in service and that he has audited against premises gas bills (to prevent fraud on the BUS).Support reduced to £1K if A2A installed as a part-replacement (conditions, and whether a later full replacement attracts a grant, to be defined)
This will open up the market further and allow, for example, a separately contracted consultant to design the system to the person who physically installs it, currently forbidden under the MCS rules (much like the architect-builder relationship)
4. No Vat on HP at purchase - regardless who/where/how
This will remove the discrimination against plumbers who fall below the VAT threshold (who currently cannot reclaim the VAT on the purchase) and against self-installers
Thinking about installing a heat pump but unsure where to start? Already have one but it’s not performing as expected? Or are you locked in a frustrating dispute with an installer or manufacturer? We’re here to help.
