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the price of industry failings.

 
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Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)
Last Post by Alec Morrow 4 years ago
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 Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
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Joined: 4 years ago
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Topic starter 28/07/2022 7:43 pm  

it’s all very sad that a modern country can’t embrace technology that does something different from what many expect, to produce the desired out come, higher efficiencies!

 

I wonder how many dissatisfied heat pumps owners it will take to force change..


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 Derek M
(@derek-m)
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28/07/2022 8:10 pm  

@alec-morrow

What you propose has already been fully adopted within industrial control systems, I was working on such systems 50 years ago.

As you have correctly pointed out the problem would appear to be within the domestic heating industry, who have not, for whatever reasons, adopted such techniques with any degree of enthusiasm. I can understand the reluctance of installers to spend time and effort configuring and optimising domestic heating systems, when they can just fit a thermostat that simply switches it on and off. The system appears to work and the client is happy until they get their first Winter energy bill.

I'm not certain what would be a suitable way to resolve this problem. MCS make recommendations but no one appears to enforce them. As far as I am aware there is no official form of training of ASHP Engineeers. Since most home systems are different there is no standard design, and a good design is key to obtaining a reliable and efficient system.

I suspect we need an outbreak of common sense, but I'm not holding my breath.



   
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 Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
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Joined: 4 years ago
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Topic starter 28/07/2022 8:18 pm  

 

E532B60D BAFA 4074 9738 61C0193BB6FD
AD807ACF BCBA 443E A01F 64E99A184CD8

@derek-m there are standard designs , all the same from all the manufacturers. there are no variations 

 

 


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 Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 216
Topic starter 28/07/2022 8:20 pm  

that’s vaillant heat pump or boiler 8 mixed zones , but it could 2 or 4. You would use a buffer instead of a header for a heat pump.

 

the pipe layout is the same for all manufacturers…heat pump or boiler


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 Derek M
(@derek-m)
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28/07/2022 8:42 pm  

@alec-morrow

Yes, I appreciate that the manufacturers produce standard generic designs, but just as in industry, the design has to be tailored to the specific requirements of the system and of the client. With domestic heating systems there are choices to be made that can lead to either a good or bad system.

I suspect that most clients either don't have the necessary knowledge and/or interest to specify in detail how their system should be designed and installed. They pay for the supposed expertise of the designer and installer, who in most cases come highly recommended (or at least accredited) by MCS, so how can there possibly be any problems with the design, its installation, commissioning and final operation. By the time the client eventually realises that there may be problems, the installers have disappeared into the sunset long ago.

I think that there needs be be a government funded scheme similar to building inspectors, that checks the proposed design, installation and commissioning, to ensure that the work has been done correctly and that the system is fit for purpose.



   
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 Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
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Posts: 216
Topic starter 28/07/2022 8:50 pm  

@derek-m im a gas  safe registered installer with about 200 of these systems over 20 yrs. there is no system that cannot accommodate this design, and the controls that optimes efficiency. I’m in London so wide range of install sizes and types biggest system 80 rads on 60yr old radiators…

 

 


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 Derek M
(@derek-m)
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28/07/2022 9:05 pm  

@alec-morrow

You don't have to convince me of your knowledge and experience, but you highlighted a problem within your specified industry.

What solution do you suggest that would help resolve the problems that you have specified?



   
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 Derek M
(@derek-m)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4425
28/07/2022 9:05 pm  

@alec-morrow

You don't have to convince me of your knowledge and experience, but you highlighted a problem within your specified industry.

What solution do you suggest that would help resolve the problems that you have specified?



   
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 Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 216
Topic starter 28/07/2022 9:23 pm  

At the heart of the problem is the business model of the manufacturers. These manufacturers advise on government policy, all on payroll of non U.k. companies charged with sales of product.  A boiler design life is 15 -20yrs, in the U.K. they last 8 years. Proper training on parts replacement needs to be provided. Design life of components is not shared with installers. 

The quickest way to force change is to ban on off relay controls forcing the alternative of compensation controls Holland did this 10 yrs ago, Germany 35yrs ago.

Training needs to align with the schematic above. So the NVQs need to reflect the different understanding of optimising plant efficiency whilst loosing the constant tampering people like with heating,

Thermal dynamics in buildings need to be appreciated and understood

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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