@cathoderay Here are the two flow temps plus the defrost markers - hope this makes things a little clearer. Regards, Toodles.
Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!
@toodles - yes, that makes sense, though I can't see the LWT magenta line poking out from the bottom of the fourth defrost in your latest chart. It may be a quirk of the way the lines are plotted. Perhaps try the zoom thing, click and drag on a PC, or whatever it is you do on a mobile to do the same thing. You should see the rectangle the page will zoom to (unless Homely have disabled that functionality) when you release the mouse button.
Midea 14kW (for now...) ASHP heating both building and DHW
Here are two screenshots of our Grant Aerona 5kW from earlier today, showing two defrost cycles.
Psychrometric trickery this week. It's cold outside, but low relative humidity. The sort of 'dry cold weather' that Scandinavia routinely gets, and why heat pumps can, perversely, often perform better in colder winter climates than in our mild and damp winters. It's all about the absolute moisture content. Any air cooling process that lowers the temperature of the air below the dew point produces condensate, at this time of year, as ice on the coil. The reduction in air temperature is sensible cooling, the generation of condensate (droplet or frozen) is latent duty. The combination added together is the total cooling. In and ASHP we are generating heating via a fluid cooled condenser, but the evaporator coil is simply an air cooling coil. Drier colder air has much less absolute moisture content that warmer damp air, so an ASHP can actually have a higher COP even when the outdoor temperature is cooler. To demonstrate the point, consider today: -1degC 70%RH, moisture content 2.43g/kg of air. More typically in the UK winter: 4degC 95%RH, moisture content 4.8g/kg of air. There's twice as much moisture in the warmer milder air temperature, and both temperatures will lead to condensate formation. The ice builds up far more quickly on the evaporator coil at 4degC than -1degC requiring regular defrost cycles. The absolute moisture content suspended in the air determines how much ice builds up on the ASHP coil and how often a defrost is required, not the air temperature.
@allyfish A new plot of this morning’s pump performance along with the Onecta app report of temp. And humidity. If this still isn’t uncluttered sufficiently to discern the individual values, I’ll play around with my fingers on the iPad screen and see if I can enlarge a small section - but my attempts at doing so so far have been very ‘hairy’ as the display seems to go berserk as soon as I touch the display!!! Regards, Toodles.
Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!
@toodles that looks a lot clearer: 0145, 0500, 0745. you even have a brown line called defrost now so thats great - homely must be working that out from the temp changes, or perhaps even polling a register in the heatpump that says "I'm defrosting now". For comparison, I'm getting them every 4-6 hrs. due to this lowering in frequency COP is now slightly better than what the mfr spec number would suggest so happy with that!
does homely give you a short term COP?
My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs
@iancalderbank The Short Term Coefficient of Performance (A new term! Shall we call it a STCOP?!) over the last two days it is 2.66 and just this day is 2.4 (we are experiencing -4.6C pre-sun rise). Another couple of ctaphs showing the last six hours and one hour and in these, the defrost cycles are visible. I thought to take a Homely check as I noted the heat pump was drawing ver little current though the radiator I felt was still warm (near the end of the pipe run though, I should have checked the bathroom one as this is the first in the pipe run.) Regards, Toodles.
Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!
Since the temp went below 0 yesterday afternoon, I had 7 defrosts in 11 hours.
ASHP: Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5kW
PV: 5.2kWp
Battery: 8.2kWh
I've noticed three types of Defrost Cycle (or at least their impacts on performance) which are all nicely shown in today's data.
Overnight it was -3C to -2C, but dry. This is area A which shows "good defrosting" the LWT (red line) increases steadily, hits the target LWT (grey line), then falls off a cliff when the defrost cycle is required. This is defrosting, but performance is fine - energy getting to the house. The defrost temperature (light blue line) is fairly steady around -10C.
At around 7:00 the snow started, and by 8:00 this was having an impact. If you look at area B, the profile of the LWT line changes. There's still a steady incline to hit the target, but then it starts to fall away at the same rate. This is the impact of the lower defrost temperature (light blue line) as the moisture in the air now increases the amount of frost and ice on the HP.
Then since 09:00 with lying snow, area C, even though the outside temp is higher, the extra moisture is dragging down the LWT even more, such that the target LWT is never being reached. More energy is being used just to counter the extra load of the defrost temp heading towards -20C earlier within each cycle; 'defrost hell'.
This is defrost cycles every 40 minutes, which I think almost halves the 'usable time' I get from the HP.
Grant Aerona 3 10kW
Posted by: @toodles@iancalderbank The Short Term Coefficient of Performance (A new term! Shall we call it a STCOP?!) over the last two days it is 2.66 and just this day is 2.4 (we are experiencing -4.6C pre-sun rise).
great if homely gives you the daily COP. its a number worth keeping an eye on. The COP numbers you're getting sound decent to me. I don't know what HP you have and what its specs are, but mine ran at about 2.5 for a long period yesterday, OAT of -3C, LWT of 40C. the mfr spec for output/input at these temps for my HP (if I interpret it right) suggests 2.4.
My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs
A heat pump on the verge of a nervous breakdown:
Miraculously, the current actual IAT is only 1.4 degrees below the desired IAT. But just look at those defrosts, and the LWT when it does get up to temperature, not to mention the hourly energy use, and a COP that drops to 1.49.
Midea 14kW (for now...) ASHP heating both building and DHW
@cathoderay ouch. that high LWT is killing it. I know you've said before that lack of physical space for bigger radiators is a big problem for you. Fan Coil units?
My octopus signup link https://share.octopus.energy/ebony-deer-230
210m2 house, Samsung 16kw Gen6 ASHP Self installed: Single circulation loop , PWM modulating pump.
My public ASHP stats: https://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=45
11.9kWp of PV
41kWh of Battery storage (3x Powerwall 2)
2x BEVs
- 25 Forums
- 1,441 Topics
- 30.2 K Posts
- 39 Online
- 1,225 Members
Join Us!
Latest Posts
-
RE: ASHP Commissioning: What Questions Should I Ask the Installer?
@derek-m thanks - will look out for the point regarding...
By Declan90 , 16 mins ago
-
RE: Noise problems with newly installed Samsung 8kW ASHP
@editor @kenbone Thanks, I would be very interested ...
By Elton , 37 mins ago
-
RE: No-code, plug-and-play monitoring for your heat pump
This is all a bit too frequentist for my liking. The pr...
By scrchngwsl , 1 hour ago
-
RE: Are Octopuses Slowing Consumer Adoption of Heat Pumps?
@ivanopinion I stumbled across this thread Performance ...
By GunboatDiplomat , 2 hours ago
-
RE: EV charger installation question – I don't want to bury the cable
Hmmm... That raises a lot of questions in my mind! ...
By Transparent , 8 hours ago
-
Relax with 4K drone footage of lawn mowing to a smooth Motown tune
Sending out some chilled weekend vibes to everyone. Lis...
By Mars , 11 hours ago
-
RE: Incorrect Billing of Customers with a Smart Meter
The starting point of that discussion on Camelot-Forum ...
By Transparent , 13 hours ago
-
Share Your Experiences with Heat Pump Manufacturer Support
Have you ever reached out to your air source heat pump ...
By Mars , 1 day ago
-
RE: Is this a bad installation and is there something wrong with my Samsung heat pump?
@ant87 thanks for that.
By David999 , 1 day ago
-
RE: Aira Heat Pump: Stylish Scandinavian Heating
I might change my mind again, but I'm currently unlikel...
By IvanOpinion , 2 days ago
-
RE: Samsung ASHP scheduling help
@elgreco69 worth reading the GitHub here as that will a...
By morh , 2 days ago
-
RE: ASHP sizing - value of Heat Transfer Coefficient
@toodles Thanks for the explanation I get it now as I h...
By Jancold , 2 days ago
-
RE: Questions about yearly heat pump maintenance
For the installer, I believe servicing and maintenance ...
By Majordennisbloodnok , 2 days ago
-
RE: Rate the quality of your heat pump design and installation
@retrorich It is very worrying that any of this should ...
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
RE: Spacing for roof fixing bolts ?
There is another consideration...but alas this doesn't ...
By Transparent , 2 days ago
-
RE: Air source heat pumps and noise
Yes, but when they go wrong things get really sticky. D...
By Majordennisbloodnok , 2 days ago
-
RE: Are You Getting the Most Out of Your Renewable Energy?
As I mentioned, there are going to be some follow-up ar...
By Majordennisbloodnok , 3 days ago
-
RE: Tell us about your Solar (PV) setup
Now, I know that this may be a little simplistic and pe...
By Toodles , 3 days ago
-
-
RE: Save the Energy Save the World using Daikin Altherma 3 operation mode and schedules settings.
Hello Mevl, I won't be able to answer all your question...
By HCas , 3 days ago
Heat Pump Humour
Latest Topics
-
Spacing for roof fixing bolts ?
By heat-pump-newbie 5 days ago
-
ASHP sizing - value of Heat Transfer Coefficient
By jamesw 5 days ago
-
Incorrect Billing of Customers with a Smart Meter
By KoRWraith 1 week ago
-
Home energy storage & battery register
By Mars 1 week ago