Crossed flow and return
Hi All
I have a Samsung ashp and believe the flow and return to the external condenser are mixed up. When I go into the controller parameters - for those who may be familiar - specifically E901 (water inlet) and E902 (water outlet), I have a higher reading on the inlet. Even though I believe the house is performing ‘ok’ in terms of energy usage I’m wondering would I be loosing much efficiency the way it is? - should I have it changed?
From talking to maintenance providers it seems to be a common mistake in new developments!
Appreciate any comments.
Thanks
Are you heating in June? Or is it in cooling mode? Are the sensors on external pipework or inside the unit?
Yes, probably it does matter, depending on the rest of your system. If you have a heat exchanger, it's likely using it the wrong way around, which will cost around 5degC, dropping efficiency by around 10%. If you have radiators, there should be a magnetic trap before the heatexchanger - it will be less effective at protecting the complex heat exchanging structure from black crud if it is "after" it.
The refrigerant side of the ASHP plate heat exchanger is a condenser, superheated refrigerant gas in at the top, lower pressure sub-cooled liquid out at the other bottom. It is always piped counter flow to the return (RWT) and leaving (LWT) water side connections. So that means ASHP connections are usually return in at the bottom and flow out at the top.
The flow on the water side could be piped wrong, Samsungs don't have a built in primary circulating pump. Some knuckle scraping installer could have crossed the house side primary flow and return water connections. In heating, your LWT will always be higher than your RWT.
Surprised the ASHP sensors don't register RWT > LWT and throw an error code 'incorrect flow direction' when in heating mode, but Samsung might assume, not unreasonably, no installer would be that stupid and therefore no error code is required for this. Ah, how little they know about UK installation standards!!....
Thanks for the replies! The Samsung unit has the sensors built into it and yes it would make sense for the system to raise a fault code once it sees the return temp higher than the flow! Perhaps newer units would do this! 10% efficiency loss is 10% higher bills so I will get it changed. I don’t believe there is a filter either so when I swap pipes around I will put a filter on flow to stop any dirt that’s in the system going into heat pump. The system was poorly commissioned, stats were controlling wrong zones too but that was a simple fix by swapping over valve actuators. - there’s probably a good business in the making to go around optimising poorly installed heat pump systems 😂
Posted by: @clongwill- there’s probably a good business in the making to go around optimising poorly installed heat pump systems 😂
I am seriously considering having @heacool or a Heat Geek engineer to come and have a look at my recently commissioned install.
Retrofitted 11.2kw Mitsubishi Ecodan to new radiators commissioned November 2021.
Posted by: @clongwillthere’s probably a good business in the making to go around optimising poorly installed heat pump systems 😂
There sure is, but it's not the most rewarding work going round sorting out other folks' cock-ups. If there's one thing I've learned on my domestic ASHP journey over the last 1 year, and my 30+ year journey in building services; inefficiency is due to poor design and control. An A2W ASHP will do what it's designed to do, capture heat from the outside air and transfer it to a secondary medium. It'll perform reliably as per it's rated capacity and published performance data. But from the unit water connections, the variables are in the hands of the system designer and installer. How much of that heat gets transmitted into the heated space, and how efficiently, can vary enormously. The ASHP gets the blame as that's the bit the customer assumes 'doesn't work'. Almost always the ASHP isn't the problem.
In your case, it looks like the installers didn't even get the water connections to the ASHP right, so I would get an independent expert report prepared and it will be money well spent. If it's new build under NHBC, and major issues are identified, have you any redress with the developer? Have neighbours got similar systems with identical issues?
@allyfish Surely if the water circuit was plumbed incorrectly and water was pumped the wrong way, the flow switch in the heat pump would not be activated and the heat pump would be prevented from starting?
@iaack hi again. The flow sensor is external on the system hot water cylinder on Samsung Gen6, not internal to the monobloc, so it's possible to have correct flow at the cylinder but reversed flow and return connections at the ASHP. Monoblocs with internal primary pump and flow monitoring can't have reverse flow. I think you can with the Samsung because these items are external. Given the standard and quality of some new build installs, it's quite possible!
- 25 Forums
- 1,513 Topics
- 31.8 K Posts
- 25 Online
- 1,283 Members
Join Us!
Latest Posts
-
RE: Additional Battery v Wind Turbine v Ripple
I should add, being an investment, the value of your in...
By Old_Scientist , 5 hours ago
-
RE: Ecodan - flow rates, sensors, settings
Achieving an accurate flow measurement is probably the ...
By Derek M , 8 hours ago
-
RE: Ecodan ASHP - How to optimise my set up?
Again, thank you for another thorough post, @derek-m - ...
By rhh2348 , 10 hours ago
-
RE: Delivering a smart and secure electricity system: government consultation
@Transparent.Now that I am represented by a new MP I th...
By IanMK13 , 12 hours ago
-
RE: Vaillant aroTHERM plus not level or flat - what base is best under an external unit?
Similar thread here
By Johnmo , 13 hours ago
-
RE: VDI 2035 heating water specification
Been looking and it seems a good little project. Ever...
By Johnmo , 2 days ago
-
RE: Do I accept an ASHP and Solar Panel retrofit under the HUG 2 scheme?
Will do. I'm currently waiting for another survey / vis...
By dssr , 2 days ago
-
The company that did the borehole were expecting us to ...
By Johnmo , 2 days ago
-
-
RE: The Misquote That Ruined the Heating Industry
@abernyte manufacturer training is pretty average. They...
By Mars , 2 days ago
-
-
RE: ECO4 Scheme and EPC ratings
@mellow Thanks. Given there is a scheme requirement to ...
By Old_Scientist , 3 days ago
-
RE: Do I just go with the lowest quote for my heat pump?
@jancold To me its a no-brainer then, a max 40C flow te...
By bontwoody , 3 days ago
-
-
RE: Heat Pump Books Beginners – Bodge Buster & From Zero To Heat Pump Hero
@editor Presumably he had some good weather Compensatio...
By Toodles , 4 days ago
-
RE: New Vaillant 7kW aroTherm ASHP or oil boiler dilemma/decision??
Storage capacity really is dependent on storage tempera...
By Johnmo , 4 days ago
-
RE: HP Cycling, Expected or Undesirable
Just a little update. I ordered a longer shielded twin ...
By bontwoody , 4 days ago
-
RE: Domestic hot water timer doing crazy things on my Grant Aerona3 10kW air source heat pump
Thanks @allyfish for the pics and info. Spoke to the in...
By Mellow , 4 days ago
-
RE: Aira Heat Pump: Stylish Scandinavian Heating
It's been a busy day for calls and emails from Aira. I ...
By MikeH , 4 days ago
-
RE: Heat Pump Servicing & Maintenance – Good Value or Rip-Off?
Hmm. A bit of a nuanced answer, methinks. As I've alr...
By Majordennisbloodnok , 4 days ago
Latest Topics
-
Ecodan - flow rates, sensors, settings
By rhh2348 11 hours ago
-
Replacing mains water with well water
By Johnmo 2 days ago
-
Additional Battery v Wind Turbine v Ripple
By bontwoody 2 days ago
-
By jamespipe 3 days ago
-
VDI 2035 heating water specification
By Johnmo 3 days ago
-
Do I just go with the lowest quote for my heat pump?
By Jancold 5 days ago
-
The Misquote That Ruined the Heating Industry
By Alec Morrow 6 days ago
-
Battery Storage Wiring Gauge Question
By Puff 6 days ago
Members Online
No online members at the moment