Posted by: @pablito

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Thanks for clarifying on the LDC. It would seem to me that a policy change to accommodate the larger units within permitted development would make a lot of sense.  The house was constructed in 1905 with solid 18 inch stone walls. It is end of terrace, 4 bedroom, 175m2 and fully double glazed. It is currently services by a 12kW electric boiler, which we use sparingly due to cost. I've completed my own MCS workbook and came to 12kW heat loss. I used the default values for parameters. The default MCS stone wall U value of 2.23 W/m2K is I suspect too high and has a big impact on the calculation. There's plenty of research (BRE, Historic Scotland...) showing that stone walls perform better than this.  The Heat Geek website projects 10kW. We will never want the house at 21 degrees which the MCS works to, 16 to 18 is fine. I suspect an 11.2kW unit would be fine. 

It sounds like you have done your research.  Your challenge might be that MCS installers will likely insist on working to 21C, you might need to lie a bit about the construction to get what you want, or go for LG which goes up to 14kW within PD dimensions (Panasonic may also, and possibly others). I haven't heard of any serious objection to the policy change so I would have thought it almost a done deal, except for the upset caused by the election.  Whether the incoming government will want to re-examine, or just let the changes that MLUHC (likely to be renamed!) have been targeting go through, is anyone's guess.

Government money double the quote - tax payers pay for all this sleight of hand - happens in all services - Hospitals / schools / roads etc. We the tax payers are the Golden Cow. - not sure how you get value for tax payers money - maybe there has to be some link to pay for those dishing out the contracts. There are established clubs ' Masons ' etc for how the carteling works - difficult to break as it is ingrained in the get rich schemes for business / the unfettered free market started by Maggie & pursued by other politicians including Labour - hence the banking crisis of 2008. Perhaps we need to tax trading and hedge fund movements as well. All the solar panels paid for though electrical bills - so the the fields of Solar paid direct though electric usage by the poorest people in the land - A corrupt decision that maybe was not thought through. I feel the air source heat pump scheme is another tax on the poor - how is it funded. Happy to see a persons tax code reduce or taken off profits but not surcharged on electric bills - all for saving the planet ! But need to be very wary of who gets the Governments ear & have the correct scientific critical analysis completed - good to read the views on this blog - apologies if it was off piste a little !

Welcome Peter; please bear in mind that this Hub is a politics - free zone, even on a Sunday! 😉 Regards, Toodles.

Posted by: @toodles

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Welcome Peter; please bear in mind that this Hub is a politics - free zone, even on a Sunday! 😉 Regards, Toodles.

Are heat pumps politics-free?  They have two principal use cases

1) to mitigate climate change by using partially (but trending towards largely) renewable energy very efficiently, and to do so at very roughly the same running cost as using fossil fuels (at current prices, which are themselves largely political)

2) where electricity is the only available fuel, to save shedloads of money

Case (2) is a minority, so really its (1)

The existence of man-made climate change shouldn't be political, its a well established, more or less incontrovertible scientific fact.  Nor should the measures we need to take if we are to combat it, they are also a matter of science.  The only political question is the trade off between speed of action, and the pain our children and grandchildren suffer.

Yet the loony factions (generally described as 'extreme right wing', but including a party for which 14% of those voting supported just three days ago), seem to think that 'We can protect our environment with more tree planting, more recycling and less single use plastics.' (quote from a manifesto), which science will tell us is utter nonsense.  In the US its worse still, there are people with significant influence (and who some the aforementioned politicians support) that go so far as to deny the existence of man-made climate change.

So I would argue that the Renewable Heating Forum, or at least the Heat Pump part of it, is inherently political, albeit only as a result of the existence of some extreme politicians/nutcases who seem to believe (or want us to believe) that they are more powerful than nature!

@jamespa Fairy Nuff! Toodles.

@jamespa

I feel certain that Donald Trump will claim that he will produce the greatest, most 'beautiful' climate change of any President, past, present or future. I hope they don't give him the chance.

Posted by: @jamespa

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...
So I would argue that the Renewable Heating Forum, or at least the Heat Pump part of it, is inherently political, albeit only as a result of the existence of some extreme politicians/nutcases who seem to believe (or want us to believe) that they are more powerful than nature!

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

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Personally, I agree with @toodles' comment; this hub is a politics-free zone. We can certainly cover topics that are on political agendas but only IMHO if we cover them in politically neutral language.

I can sort of agree, but its an imprecise line.  Perhaps the distinction is to avoid 'party politics' (ie express criticism or support of one particular political 'tribe').  I can't quite see how we avoid implicit criticism or support though, when discussing what has become a political issue because politicians have chosen to make it one. 

However if avoiding party politicsis or expressly supporting or criticising any political tribe is sufficiently apolitical I could agree that's both possible and very probably desirable, so long as we are free to comment on what 'the government' could, should or hasn't done in relation to the topics under discussion.  If we can't do this then too much is excluded IMHO.

It is indeed an imprecise line.

I think keeping in mind what we're trying to achieve here by keeping the hub apolitical is a good yardstick. It's like pub discussions that traditionally avoided politics and religion as the two major flash points in order to ensure the atmosphere in the bar was kept convivial.

As users of largely electricity-dependent kit here, we all have a strong interest in a stable, reliable and cost-effective supply of energy, so that's definitely a valid topic for conversation, including ideas about how improvements could be made. However, my views on whether nationalisation or privatisation is the best way to run the energy industry (if I had any such views) definitely fall into the political bucket and run the risk of starting up divisive arguments with other members who may feel differently.

In other words, if it feels controversial it's probably best not to post it here. Nor, I might add, does that hold true just for politics; it's a friendly place here and well worth not upsetting that, not that I'm suggesting anyone is doing that at the moment.

One of our primary goals in setting up these forums was to create a safe, friendly environment, free from the toxicity often found on platforms like Facebook and X. To avoid divisiveness, we do not allow political views. However, since politics can influence heat pump and renewable policies, mentioning a party or politician may sometimes be unavoidable. We are fine with this, provided the comments are polite and respectful. Any comments that are not will be deleted. 

@majordennisbloodnok And on a positive note regarding energy security,
 I received a very optimistic and positive message from Sarah at Ripple Energy for if the easement of planning applications for in-shore Wind Turbines follows through, this looks to be very positive. I’ll admit I have shares in a solar panel project in Derril Water and have further invested in their new wind turbine project. 😊 Regards, Toodles.

Going back to the original post and https://octopus.energy/press/Octopus-Energy-heat-pump-installer-programme/#:~:text=Heat%20Geek%20has%20joined%20as,in%20the%20heat%20pump%20market.  
Octopus are partnering with heat geek and today’s plumbers were chatting about this at lunchtime as to how it will impact them
They seemed to know that Octopus are now quoting much more up front  since they got flack for some poor quality installs that cost more to rectify and hence they made too many losses on installs.
But they were concerned that Octopus would only pass over the difficult ones!