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Government Schemes, Regulations, Planning & Organisations
Last Post by Mike Patrick 2 years ago
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 Mike Patrick
(@mike-patrick)
Honorable Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 172
Topic starter 24/03/2021 11:44 am  

To obtain the RHI payment you need the completed MCS form from the installer of your heating system and an up to date EPC. The EPC rating has some influence on the size of your RHI payment. But it does not truly reflect the actual efficiency in use which is what really counts.

My experience with a ground up restoration of a Cotswold Cottage was that the EPC rating system (a tick box exercise on a laptop by the inspector) is weighted against old buildings. We had a mix of refurb and new build. The exisiting walls were stone and two feet thick. We insulated these internally with Cellotex, behind plasterboard. The new build was clearly cavity wall with insulation. The rest of the work involved the ASHP, underfloor heating, double glazing and LED lighting. The resulting EPC rating was only D+. We missed a C rating for not also having solar PV.  The 20  year payback period on the Solar PV was just too long to justify. The PV panels would wear out and be technologically obsolete long before then.

My house is far more energy efficient than those on a new housing estate nearby . They are still being connected to the gas grid and have a better EPC than mine. Sour grapes!

Grant Aerona HPID10 10kWh ASHP


   
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 George
(@george)
Reputable Member Contributor
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 85
28/03/2021 6:45 pm  

The EPC system is a bit of a farce. 

 

I'm aware of people who issue some EPC's without even visiting the property 🤣 

 

There is a massaging of numbers that goes on to make reports look better/worse depending on what you need for RHI or other things and many aspects of insulation/build are "assumed" on reports as being there without actually confirming this is the case.

 

For me the most important aspect of a properties efficiency is air tightness - something that we rarely test in the UK. The air tightness test exposes bad construction. If all new homes/extensions had to pass an air tightness test you would soon see a large improvement in efficiency and reduced energy consumption. 

Mitsubishi Ecodan 14kw ASHP + 500l Cylinder


   
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JulianC
 JulianC
(@julianc)
Noble Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 321
04/04/2021 11:20 pm  

Hi Mike and George

on the solar PV, fitting the most number of panels you can and getting a battery gives a payback of about 10 years. Solar PV panels last 25 years plus (guaranteed to be 80% efficient after that time. The panels don’t fail. But connectors can need replacement (high DC current). Inverters have to be replaced (although the solar edge ones are guaranteed 25 years too)

EPC does seem to be a bit of a game. My 20 year old bungalow was assessed as B. We had doubled loft insulation to 300mm. Triple glazed. Plugged drafts. New oil boiler. 4kW solar PV. It is just a continuous improvement of building fabric. 
After the ASHP, I think a new front and back door will be next. 

Daikin Altherma 3H HT 12kWh ASHP with Mixergy h/w cylinder; 4kW solar PV with Solic 200 electric diverter; Honda e and new Hyundai Ioniq 5 N electric vehicles with Myenergi Zappi mk1 charger


   
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 batalto
(@batalto)
Famed Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1091
22/04/2021 12:51 pm  

Just has the EPC done to qualify for the RHI - Rating A, Score 93. W/m2 heating 34

This means we qualify for the RHI and also we will get the full RHI

Space heating - 17,979 kWh per year
Water heating - 3,713 kWh per year

12kW Midea ASHP - 8.4kw solar - 29kWh batteries
262m2 house in Hampshire
Current weather compensation: 47@-2 and 31@17
My current performance can be found - HERE
Heat pump calculator spreadsheet - HERE


   
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 Kev M
(@kev-m)
Famed Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1276
22/04/2021 3:39 pm  

Sounds good.  You will be fine; we're a 60 D, 21073/2644 kWh for heating/HW and our ASHP seems to work well. 

How did you work out W/m2 from the EPC?


   
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 batalto
(@batalto)
Famed Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1091
22/04/2021 5:14 pm  

@kev-mit was on the EPC. Maybe its the new format?

12kW Midea ASHP - 8.4kw solar - 29kWh batteries
262m2 house in Hampshire
Current weather compensation: 47@-2 and 31@17
My current performance can be found - HERE
Heat pump calculator spreadsheet - HERE


   
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 Mike Patrick
(@mike-patrick)
Honorable Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 172
Topic starter 19/12/2021 5:12 pm  

I just came across this:

YORKSHIREENERGYSYSTEMS.CO.UK "https://www.yorkshireenergysystems.co.uk/epcandheatpumps/"

It claims that an ASHP makes an EPC rating worse than if the same property were heated with gas,  because of the way the algorithm is set.

Is this true? Bonkers if so.

 

Mike

Grant Aerona HPID10 10kWh ASHP


   
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 prjohn
(@prjohn)
Reputable Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 125
19/12/2021 6:52 pm  

Yes, I was told the same. The heat pump improves your energy efficiency but does not show in your energy costs.  Apparently, the EPC calculation does not take HP efficiency into account when making the energy calculation. Someone with better knowledge might explain it better.


   
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Mars
 Mars
(@editor)
Illustrious Member Admin
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 3374
21/12/2021 10:10 am  

@mike-patrick, it’s true and it’s crazy. We found this out earlier this year in an interview and the various heat pump bodies are trying to get the SAP (Standard Assessment Procedure) amended. Apparently, and I don’t know how it works exactly, but you get docked something like 50 points when switching to a heat pump from a fossil fuel boiler and making those points up is virtually impossible so you drop down the EPC bands. Another head scratching system and policy flaw.

Pre-order: The Ultimate Guide to Heat Pumps

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 Kev M
(@kev-m)
Famed Member Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1276
04/01/2022 9:18 pm  

An article on heat pumps and EPCs.  It explains the problem with some examples.  It's a couple of years old but I don't think anything has changed.

YORKSHIREENERGYSYSTEMS.CO.UK "https://www.yorkshireenergysystems.co.uk/epcandheatpumps/"

This post was modified 4 years ago by Kev M

   
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 Bill
(@bill)
New Member Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 1
21/02/2022 12:06 pm  

@mike-patrick - see

ELMHURSTENERGY.CO.UK "https://www.elmhurstenergy.co.uk/why-does-my-epc-not-recommend-a-heat-pump"
Why does my EPC not recommend a heat pump? - Elmhurst Energy
Uncover why EPCs often miss heat pumps as a recommendation. Explore outdated energy metrics and the need for a methodology update.

 


   
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 Smoke me a Kipper
(@smoke-me-a-kipper)
Eminent Member Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 12
21/02/2022 3:29 pm  

They do need a complete rethink. My flat in london I sold 18mnths ago. Was electric only and terrible running costs (elvaco 1970's direct electric), all flats were an E. In the 12 months befre I moved out, I was hardly there (for personal reasosn) so energy bills were only 15 quid a mo.

The EPC assesor gave it a 'C'. The only C in the entire block. No Way is it a C. I just wasn't there or using heating which must have affected his reasoning. 

Also of concern, the assesor was in the property 10s max. He looked at one heater, in one room then was off. Offered to show him round but he said he didnt need to see anything else apparently.  Make of that what you will.


   
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