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Electricity price predictions

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(@prjohn)
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Posted by: @transparent
Posted by: @prjohn

"If technically-minded readers on this Forum have ideas as to how the UK can reduce network losses, then the doors are open for you to get stuck in!"

 

 

I am not technically mined but if they generated elcictricty at point of use and/or created localised (regional) energy security which avoiding long distance transfers. Would this not reduce network losses? 


   
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(@derek-m)
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@transparent

The first thing that should be done is that Ofgem should allow National Grid and DNO's to install and operate large scale battery storage systems, which could be designed to not only help supply demand at peak periods, but could also be used to help control phase imbalance. It may also be possible that it may better utilise renewable energy, so that we don't have the ridiculous situation where companies are paid not to generate when there is a surplus of supply. 


   
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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @prjohn
Posted by: @transparent
Posted by: @prjohn

"If technically-minded readers on this Forum have ideas as to how the UK can reduce network losses, then the doors are open for you to get stuck in!"

 

 

I am not technically mined but if they generated elcictricty at point of use and/or created localised (regional) energy security which avoiding long distance transfers. Would this not reduce network losses? 

That is why the government are once more pushing solar PV, but should also include battery storage. I still maintain that energy efficiency should be the primary objective along with research into better insulation materials and systems, also energy storage, be it battery or otherwise. If you don't need the energy in the first place, then it does not need to be produced and transported. Total no brainer.


   
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Posted by: @derek-m

Ofgem should allow National Grid and DNO's to install and operate large scale battery storage systems, which could be designed to not only help supply demand at peak periods, but could also be used to help control phase imbalance.

If DNOs were to install batteries to minimise phase-imbalance losses, they would need to be sited at local substations. There are 230,000 ground-mounted transformers and 320,000 pole mounted. 🤫 

Apparatus installed at substation has to be certified for that location. The standard is very high due to the possibility of arcing and current-loops. It costs £10k to put a '3-phase smart meter' into a substation, plus ongoing data-communication costs!

If there was a power-outage, the sub-station battery would have to obey the G99 rules in order to ensure that it couldn't energise the transformer whilst engineers were working on it.

Alternatively, if the storage assets were in homes served by that substation, the installation costs are much lower, and the stored electricity could be used in the event of a power cut. I'm exploring that route at the moment.

 

The losses due to harmonics are every bit as important. Unlike phase-imbalance losses, harmonics pass through the local substation and on to the primary, bulk-supply and grid-supply transformers.

The graph I posted above was from harmonic aberrations sampled at a BSP transformer (33kV output). Heat-pumps cause losses across the entire distribution grid.

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(@prjohn)
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@transparent "The losses due to harmonics are every bit as important."

If harmonics caused by heap pumps are such an issue then can we not use battery storage as "capacitors" to reduce such problems? 


   
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If it were that simple, that raises the question of why heat-pump manufacturers aren't installing capacitors.

Perhaps it is that simple... but because the losses are incurred by the DNO, the customers aren't motivated to pay for such a remedy.

I don't (yet) have a heat-pump. There are others on the forum with knowledge of capacitors and inductors at 'power-level' who are better able to address that point.

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(@derek-m)
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@transparent

I don't see how having equipment on a single phase system in homes, can be used to mitigate phase imbalance, since it will have no way of knowing what the loading is on the other two phases within the local area. The other thing to consider is that the equipment would not be under the control of either the local DNO or National Grid, so could not easily be used for energy storage or peak lopping.

My understand of harmonics is that they are higher frequency waveforms superimposed on the fundamental, normally a multiple of the base frequency. Domestic and industrial equipment would normally have filtering fitted, to prevent harmonics from back feeding into the electrical supply system and I would expect heat pumps to have the same requirement. I'm not certain if the graph you posted is showing harmonics or just variations in voltage due to changes in loading.


   
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The graph I posted comes directly from a data-set supplied to me by a very senior engineer/manager at a DNO. He sent it to demonstrate the voltage variations which are visible on a 33kV line as a result of harmonics. I have absolute trust in the source of that information.

I have more data than I've shown, but it's pretty consistent.

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(@diverted-energy)
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Well, this one has certainly headed off at a tangent..

If we isolate our gas production from global markets, what do we say if every other countrt did the same and we can't buy the excess we need, like Norway for example?

 


   
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(@batalto)
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@diverted-energy that's exactly the issue. If we were self sufficient in gas then its another thing, but we need to import over the darkest part of winter. We cannot horde gas now as we don't have a spare capacity nor do we have the peak supplies we need when we need it most. 

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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @transparent

The graph I posted comes directly from a data-set supplied to me by a very senior engineer/manager at a DNO. He sent it to demonstrate the voltage variations which are visible on a 33kV line as a result of harmonics. I have absolute trust in the source of that information.

I have more data than I've shown, but it's pretty consistent.

To see the true harmonics it would be necessary to use a frequency analyser which would show the voltage levels at different frequencies.

A very good friend of mine works at National Grid and he manages a team of Engineers and Technicians who actually keep the system working. His assessments of the technical qualities of many of the middle and higher management does not fill me with confidence. I remember him saying that one of the Directors, who claims to be a Chartered Engineer, during some meeting had asked why they did not use AC Batteries to resolve a particular problem. I hope that the DNO managers are not as technically astute.

This post was modified 2 years ago by Derek M

   
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