Keep receipts, and a diary of what you do.

That will be required if you find yourself going down the route of Arbitration or Small Claims Court.

This discussion topic is also part of your 'evidence'.
Photos are better than just text explanations.

You can't expect a Judge to understand the technical descriptions we're using.

@transparent 

Will do buddy. 

Installer has since replied to my Formal Complaint Letter and said they will get back to me within 10 days so looking like something may happen at least they have replied it's a start. 

Next question is concrete bases....

What are the requirements for this as I think I need to get it removed from the wall to aid the noise levels and pipe routes and make it less commercial looking

@burtis do you know which consumer code is "behind" your installation: HIES or RECC?

https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/how-to-complain-about-a-poorly-installed-heat-pump

@editor 

HIES I believe buddy. 

I have to go through MCS first then HIES after. 

I did call them all to see what's what and it's all pretty confusing 😅

@burtis please keep us updated. It’s definitely a complicated process which isn’t seamless in any way.

Just a word about the Retail Energy Code (RECC) organisation @editor 

When first formed it was tasked with pulling together all official documents about energy matters from the various bodies which had published them.
That work was underscored by the need to make these available through an online Digital Library.

I was involved in those early stages because I could no longer find certain documents which I had previously downloaded from Dept of Business Energy and Industrial Services (BEIS), for example.

RECC gave me editorial access and offered that I could contribute to the various committees which were verifying, collating and standardising access to the Library contents.

I quickly gave up. I didn't have time to offer unpaid advice on what was or wasn't required across hundreds of important documents.

Today I've just tried to find that Digital Library and look for editions of a couple of documents which should be present.
Alas, I couldn't even find the library!  😥 

There were two main observations I'd made to RECC

1: Ensure you retain earlier copies of specifications and regulatory documentation.

2: Ensure that there are relevant links to take the reader to any other document/section/paragraph which is referred to within the text.

RECC did neither.

When I looked for the early copy of the SMETS2 specification which was ratified by the European Commission in January 2013, it was absent.
Nor was there any way to discover what was defined as the Final version.
All copies in the library were marked 'Draft' with a version number.

Instead of employing professionals with an understanding of the content to insert relevant links, RECC used administrative staff.
They created a Glossary/Dictionary of all the technical terms and inserted links to that.

Here's a copy of some feedback I provided to RECC a couple of years ago.
It demonstrates how useless were the copies of documents which they were busy (re-) publishing.

Given the very high cost of setting up RECC and the Digital Library, we should by now be able to point @burtis (and others) to the Standards which form the underlying basis of how heat-pumps must be installed.

There should be cross references to Building Regulations, Safety Notifications, Installation Guidance, and material specifications with their test certificates.

But I think all those foundational documents have been 'lost'.

You might want to raise this when you meet with MCS.

@transparent 

You detail in explaining this is excellent. 

But I am shocked that people have to go to this length to get it sorted. 

Personally I think it should be a case of you have a problem you raise it with MCS they issue a survey or ask you to get a survey done to identify issues. 

Installer comes to fix it or there should be a pot of money/insurance used to solve it using original installer or a new one. It's all a bit convoluted to be fair 🥲

I still haven't heard back from the installer but they do have a few more days

Posted by: @burtis

↑

@transparent 

 

You detail in explaining this is excellent. 

 

But I am shocked that people have to go to this length to get it sorted. 

Personally I think it should be a case of you have a problem you raise it with MCS they issue a survey or ask you to get a survey done to identify issues. 

Installer comes to fix it or there should be a pot of money/insurance used to solve it using original installer or a new one. It's all a bit convoluted to be fair 🥲

 

I still haven't heard back from the installer but they do have a few more days

 

 

Unfortunately MCS is funded and run by the industry.  He who pays the piper and all that.

My overwhelming impression, sadly, is that their guiding purpose is to protect the installer not the customer, which they appear to do very well if what we hear on this forum and on buildhub is even faintly representative.

Unfortunately @burtis James is right.

MCS is the Government's preferred vehicle to deliver the domestic initiatives they wish to promote (solar panels, battery storage, Boiler Upgrade Scream etc).
Apart from fees paid to it by those it accredits as installers, it also receives significant income from HMG itself.

When it comes to the issue of Heat Pumps, MCS made its case to Government that the accredited installers should self-certify their work in the same manner that electricians do.

MCS considers itself as worthy an organisation as the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC), ELECSA or Electrical Contractors Association (ECA).

But the evidence doesn't bear that out.
Whilst we enjoy high professional standards in respect of the electrical portions of heat-pump installation, contractors don't even appear to understand the relevant Building Regulations requirements.

The people who should be complaining about this are the Local Planning Authorities.
They have responsibility for enforcing Building Regulations, and can be held to account (legally) if they allow work in their area which doesn't comply.
MCS has made an arrangement which goes above their heads - a conflict with the existing legislation.

That's why I write here on the Forum that consumers with failed installations should be communicating with their local LPA Councillor.
It is they who have the mandate to ensure that Building Regulations are enforced.

And if that fails, then your next recourse is to your MP.
Government shouldn't have granted permission to MCS that they can stray into Planning legislation.

Yes, I've done a lot of research into this.

So you can copy whatever you need from my posts here on the Forum in order to inform Councillors and MPs what the problem is.

Well sadly it's been 14 days now so according to MCS website I have to file the form with them 😕 

Only response I got was 10 days ago that they will be In touch with me in 10 days or less with a response. 

Will update when I know more

Posted by: @transparent

↑

Unfortunately @burtis James is right.

MCS is the Government's preferred vehicle to deliver the domestic initiatives they wish to promote (solar panels, battery storage, Boiler Upgrade Scream etc).
Apart from fees paid to it by those it accredits as installers, it also receives significant income from HMG itself.

When it comes to the issue of Heat Pumps, MCS made its case to Government that the accredited installers should self-certify their work in the same manner that electricians do.

MCS considers itself as worthy an organisation as the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC), ELECSA or Electrical Contractors Association (ECA).

But the evidence doesn't bear that out.
Whilst we enjoy high professional standards in respect of the electrical portions of heat-pump installation, contractors don't even appear to understand the relevant Building Regulations requirements.

The people who should be complaining about this are the Local Planning Authorities.
They have responsibility for enforcing Building Regulations, and can be held to account (legally) if they allow work in their area which doesn't comply.
MCS has made an arrangement which goes above their heads - a conflict with the existing legislation.

That's why I write here on the Forum that consumers with failed installations should be communicating with their local LPA Councillor.
It is they who have the mandate to ensure that Building Regulations are enforced.

And if that fails, then your next recourse is to your MP.
Government shouldn't have granted permission to MCS that they can stray into Planning legislation.

 

Yes, I've done a lot of research into this.

So you can copy whatever you need from my posts here on the Forum in order to inform Councillors and MPs what the problem is.

Your analysis is right but..

• The number of Councillors or MPs that understand anything remotely technical is tiny
• The Civil Service (which, so far as I can tell, was never particularly technical) has been dumbed down by successive governments on the pretext that 'we cant afford it/we have had enough of experts', whereas in fact the country as a whole cant afford not to have a well paid, well qualified Civil Service.  This is of course part of the reason we are in a bit of a mess, but ignoring (or being blind to) science or engineering facts happens to suit a small, but very powerful, minority.

The inevitable consequence is policy making by the industry for the industry, which MCS (and some others) have ruthlessly exploited.

The obvious way to correct this is to rebuild a strong, technically competent civil service and elect a good number of MPs/Councillors who have qualifications in STEM subjects.  However whilst the Daily Fail, the Torygraph and their self-interested proprietors dominate the media (ie for the forseable future), that's simply not going to happen.

The only other way I can see is that the good people in the industry get fed up with propping up the poor people, and themselves campaign for a reformed system.  There are a few who are prepared to speak out and do so, but currently they appear to be in the minority, and many of those have probably concluded that its hopeless and their best bet is just to get on and do a good job.  People who get pleasure from doing a good job are, after all, quite likely to veer towards doing just that rather than engaging in a likely futile campaign of reform.

I'm struggling, to be honest, to envisage a scenario under which this gets resolved.  It hasn't been resolved for solar 15 years down the line.  Personally my only remaining hope is FlexiOrb.  They may at least provide some competition, but it remains to be see whether they are actually any better.

All very depressing.  As I have said before the heating industry has form; it has been leading us astray since the introduction of condensing boilers and as a result many, possibly most, are paying 10% more for our fossil fuel heating than we need to.  Why would we expect anything to change?