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How would you rate the design, installation and efficiency of your heat pump system? Poll is created on Nov 06, 2022

  
  
  
  
  
  

[Sticky] Rate the quality of your heat pump design and installation

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(@iantelescope)
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@mike-h 

Many thanks mike.

I used 2091 , "not  used "  between Aug 2022 until Nov 2022.

In case I made a mistake, I have just now set the 2091 to "Not Used".

As, before, the Front panel Water Law Display has vanished .

I have No Water Law , Samsung Weather Compensation.

My experience with option 2091 "Not Used" is that my Heat Pump becomes even more inefficient while the " Short Cycling " remains.

Very heavy "Short Cycling " has been apparent whither I use Weather compensation or Not.

Now ,my Weather compensation has completely stopped.

I did consider moving the wired controller into my living room , but, abandoned the idea with the increased inefficiency resulting from the loss of Weather Compensation and the loss of Room Thermostat control of my Living room Temperatures.

I know I can operated using the wired controller , 2091 " not  used" using the scheduler , but that is inconvenient to say the least.

This post was modified 2 months ago by Mars

   
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(@mike-h)
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@iantelescope 

You should see Set indoor and this is adjustable. However weather compensation still operates just as it did when using an external stat. The ONLY difference is the inability to change the offset.

I set my LWT sufficiently high so that the ASHP runs for an hour or so and is then switched off by the stat. The COP is lower, but electricity usage is also lower and no cycling.

If you use room temperature mode, you may need to set 2093 to 1 to minimise cycling, as recommended by someone in the other forum, although mine is still set on 2. 


   
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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @iantelescope

@derek-m 

Hi Derek,

 

Option 2092:

The Field option, 2092 is not used, being the control for an Second, unused,  Zone.

The Field Option ,2092 uses the Graphical control Graph Water Law 2, WL2.

I have No second Zone.

 

Option 2093:

The Field option, 2093 is not used, being the control for an Third , unused, control in another Zone.

The Field Option ,2093 uses the Graphical control Graph Water Law 2, WL2.

 

Option 2091:

The Field option, 2091 is used, allowing, in my case, the operation of the Front panel  Water Law ( Samsung  Weather compensation) Offset Thermostat. 

The Field Option ,2091 uses the Graphical control Graph Water Law 1, WL1.

 

The Water Law  ( Samsung Weather Compensation ) Control Graphs ,

 

Option 201:

The Outside Temperatures , graphical ordinates, for Both Water Law 1 and Water Law 2 are set by Field bits 201.

Field bit 201 has two Sub fields , a Low outside  Temperature and High Outside Temperature.

Confusingly, the Low Temperature is here the highest , outside Graphical coordinate value of 15 C.

Equally, confusingly , the High Temperature is the lowest value , being varied between -2 C  ( England), -5 C ( South Scotland ) and -6 C ( North Scotland).

I have used , and varied the High setting between -4 and -6C as directed by the Samsung Manuals , You tube videos and talks with "experts".

 

Option 202:

The Field bit 202 has two Sub Fields setting the graphical  co-ordinates  for Water Law 1 Only.

The Water Temperature has here , Two Coordinates.

1): The required Water Temperature when the Outside Temperature is High , varied between +30 and +35C.

2): The required Water Temperature when the Outside Temperature is Low ( -3,-5 or -6 C) , varied between +40 and +50 C.

 

The Temperature Water Law 1 ( Samsung Weather Compensation ) with Offset is shown on the following:

WL1 A

 Where the Water Temperature was set to +30 C when the outside Temperature was +15 C.

The Water Temperature was set to +45 C when the Outside Temperature was - 5 C.

 

Option 203:

The Temperature Water Law 2 ( Samsung Weather Compensation on Zone 2) with Offset is shown on the following:

WL2 1

Where the Water Temperature was set to +30 C when the outside Temperature was +15 C or greater.

The Water Temperature was set to +40 C when the Outside Temperature was - 5 C or lower.

 

Definitely thought up by someone with a passion for Y=mX + C , "O Level Maths".

ian

 

You are once more not answering the questions I have asked, but instead providing a description of which I am fully aware.

Until you are prepared to actually answer my questions there is no further help that I can provide.

I wish you the best in resolving your problems.

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@mike-h 

Hi Mike,

My Heat Pump has Two independent Water circuits performing Two different and independent operations.

1) Primary Water Loop.

The Primary Water loop controls the pipe Water temperature using a Temperature sensor inside my Heat Pump.

The Temperatures from the sensor are compared to the temperatures set by the Water Law Graph.

This Water Law control is selected by bits 2091 options " Water Pump 1" , "Water Pump 2" or "Water Pump 3".

This water loop has it's own motor , thermostat and outdoor Sensor.

The purpose is to independently control the Water Temperature as a function of the outdoor Temperature using a continuously varying "Inverter".

2) Secondary Water Loop.

The Secondary Water Loop controls the Room Temperature using a standard room Temperature Thermostat.

The Room Thermostat controls a second motor using ON/OFF Signals.

Practice

Using 2091 options " Water Pump 1" , "Water Pump 2" or "Water Pump 3" my Heat Pump works , and displays the results of the correct operation of a Weather Compensated  System.

The Primary Water  loop , however, generates extensive  "Short Cycling" caused by the Primary loop water volume of 6 litres.

 

Question?

How many people have, like myself, a Two Water Circuit separated by a Heat Exchanger?

How many people are using these heat pumps without a Water Compensation Display?

Have I misunderstood your description of the operation of a Weather Compensated system without a display?

This post was modified 2 months ago by Mars

   
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(@mike-h)
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Posted by: @iantelescope

This water loop has it's own motor , thermostat and outdoor Sensor.

The purpose is to independently control the Water Temperature as a function of the outdoor Temperature using a continuously varying "Inverter".

You have what is sometimes referred to as flow separation. In your case this is done using a heat exchanger and in most other Samsung systems that I know of, this is done using a 4 pipe buffer tank. Your system is therefore not that different to those with buffer tanks. Also, there are several members of this forum who have heat exchangers like yours, albeit with different ASHP manufacturers and short cycling has not been a feature as far as I am aware.

The usual explanation for short cycling is that at lower flow temperatures, the emitters in the house emit less heat than the minimum that the heat pump can modulate down to. Glyn Hudson has a 5kW Samsung like you and feels that it can only modulate down to around 3kW. So if your emitters can only emit 2.8 kW at a flow temperature of say 32C, then the flow temperature leaving the ASHP (LWT) will rise above its set point and the compressor will stop. Depending on your 2091/2 settings, the water pump will run for 1 minute, 3 minutes or continue. When the LWT falls approx 2C below its set point the compressor will start up again. Several Samsung owners have described repeated cycles of around 8 minutes duration in this scenario (me included).

What emitters do you have and what is your calculated heat loss at your design temperature? At what LWT and outside air temperature (OAT) does your compressor short cycle? The problem with some buffer tanks and some heat exchangers is that the flow temperature to the emitters is often a few degrees less than the LWT from the ASHP. Therefore the emitters see a reduced temperature and emit less heat as a result, increasing the chances of short cycling.

Posted by: @iantelescope

How many people are using these heat pumps without a Water Compensation Display?

Have I misunderstood your description of the operation of a Weather Compensated system without a display?

I think you have misunderstood. Samsung uses Weather compensation by default. There are 2 main displays - one where you can adjust the LWT by increasing the offset by +/- 5C and the other where you adjust the desired minimum room temperature. Weather compensation is running whichever display is visible. When the offset display is used, an external thermostat is usually used to switch the ASHP on and off depending on set temperatures. When the room temperature set point is displayed, the thermostat in the wired remote controller will switch the ASHP on and off depending on set temperatures. The LWT will be controlled by the weather compensation settings, whatever display is chosen. All that the wired remote controller thermostat or the external thermostat does is switch the ASHP on or off. They do not control LWT.

The fact that your primary loop contains only 6 litres is neither here nor there as far as short cycling is concerned. It is the lack of heat emitted from the secondary loop that causes short cycling.

By the way, when I talk about short cycling, I am referring to the compressor, not any of the water pumps. In your previous posts, it has not always been clear whether you were referring to water pumps cycling instead.


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@mike-h 

Many,Many thanks Mike!

I am increasingly depressed with contradictory , and often arrogant "advice" from the "Experts".

Samsung Minimum Modulation power.

I too have discovered that my Samsung  Minimum Modulation is about 3 Kw.

With No Modulation below a power of 3 Kw, my Heat pump indeed  starts "Short Cycling".

The "Short Cycling " was , originally ,18 months ago, indeed 8 minutes, confirming your explanation.

 

Weather Compensation

I  used the  Water  Offset Display/Control under the mistaken belief that savings of between  7% to 10 % could be achieved.

I stand corrected, in not appreciating that Weather compensation was still used even when the Water Temperature Offset Display was NOT.

 

Winter freezing and Buffer Tanks 

Samsung-Dallium advised that a  Buffer tank should be installed on my system " to prevent winter freezing ".

The Samsung controller dumps  water from the Buffer tank during cold winter nights without consuming Electricity.

My Buffer tank successfully and verifiably  protects against Winter freezing.

 

"Short Cycling" ,Water volume and Buffer tanks.

The MCS produced the following statement about the severity of "Short Cycling".

 

Buffer sizing 11

I may be mistaken , but my understanding is  that the "Cycle time " is a function of the Water Volume contained in the Water pipes connecting the Heat Pump to my Heat Exchanger.

Samsung also say that " Samsung Heat Pumps Do not "normally" require a Buffer tank, however, if the volume is less than 20 L a Buffer tank will be required.

Buffer Warning !0002

Notice that Samsung , and the MCS, advise limiting, but not eliminating  "Short Cycling".

Note that Both Samsung, Kendra and the MCS warn of the potential increase in losses from a buffer or Volumising tank.

Again, many thanks for your help in restoring some confidence, and lifting my depression .

 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Mars

   
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(@iantelescope)
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@mike-h 

Hi Mike,

Sorry to bother you again, but I still have a niggling doubt about Samsung's Weather compensation.

I still find it difficult to believe that the Samsung Heat Pump uses Weather compensation under  the " not used " option 0 of Field bit 2091.

 

My System , for example, allows me to set the Water Temperature Offset and measure the resulting pipe Water Temperature but only when using field bits 2091 with Water apps 1,2 or 3.

My Samsung Instruction manual makes no mention of Water Law Weather compensation , WL, for the "not used" option..

 

How do you know it is working without a control or display?

A visiting French Samsung Engineer, a strong advocate of Weather  compensation, nonetheless freely admitted to "not understanding" the differences between 2091 Motor App 1,2 or 3.

His opinion was that "it made little difference whither Motor App 1 , 2 or 3  was used, but use them nonetheless".

He left , saying that "weather compensation saved between 7% and 10% Energy".

This post was modified 2 months ago by Mars

   
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(@mike-h)
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Posted by: @iantelescope

I may be mistaken , but my understanding is  that the "Cycle time " is a function of the Water Volume contained in the Water pipes connecting the Heat Pump to my Heat Exchanger.

Hi Ian, yes you are mistaken. The water volume in the primary loop with a heat exchanger is always going to be small. This a quote from Graham Hendra's linkedin article on  secondary flow: 'In my system I have a total of 150 litres of water in all the pipes and radiators, the primary circuit only holds about 25 litres the rest is in the secondary.' The main determinant for cycling is the volume in the secondary circuit.

Posted by: @iantelescope

Samsung also say that " Samsung Heat Pumps Do not "normally" require a Buffer tank, however, if the volume is less than 20 L a Buffer tank will be required

The 20L refers to your secondary circuit volume

Posted by: @iantelescope

How do you know it is working without a control or display?

Very easily. When I view my heating display, I can see the flow temperature and when it is -5C outside it has a flow temp of approx 45C and when OAT is 5C, the flow temp is approx 35C, so it is quite clear that weather compensation is operating (see photos). Weather compensation does indeed save you money compared with a fixed flow temperature. Weather compensation is running whether you choose 2091 0,1,2,3 or 4

Room Temp mode 1
OAT

Posted by: @iantelescope

Winter freezing and Buffer Tanks 

Samsung-Dallium advised that a  Buffer tank should be installed on my system " to prevent winter freezing ".

The Samsung controller dumps  water from the Buffer tank during cold winter nights without consuming Electricity.

My Buffer tank successfully and verifiably  protects against Winter freezing.

I no longer have a buffer tank. The anti freeze function on my 12kW Samsung takes heat from my DHW cylinder. I'm not sure what it used to do before the buffer tank was removed, but I suspect it did the same.

Posted by: @iantelescope

Personally, I would like to abandon the entire system, returning to a far simpler One water loop  system without Heat Exchangers, Volumisers or secondary pumps , Expansion vessels and PRV's.

Have you any plans to do this? I'm sure that is the right way forward, but as stated before, don't get rid of the expansion vessels or PRVs!!


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@mike-h 

Many thanks mike for your excellent corrections to my understanding. I stand corrected again.

Given the previous performance of my,

a) my "installer" ,now STRUCK-OFF for the Third Time in Two Years. 

b) The NIC who now say that " You are not going to like this but ..................................................Nothing can now  be done....good luck!".

c) Telford, who repeatedly advised "that all their tanks should be installed with a 50 L Buffer".

d) A coterie of "Experts" who issue conflicting and uncosted advice .

I must be very wary of spending any more money!

Sorry, but my definition, and observation, My Cycle Time is that between  

a) When the Primary Pipe Water Temperature is greater than Water Law Trigger Temperature, WLTT,

AND 

b) The Time when the Pipe Water Temperature dips below the End of Cycle Water Law Trigger Temperature, EOCTT,

i.e. Cycle-Time = Time between  (WLTT firing  - EOCTT firing )

Where

The Water Law Trigger Temperature = Field bits 202,203  + Water Law Thermostat Control.

AND

The End of cycle Water Law Trigger Temperature is the Water Law Trigger Temperature -(minus) the Hysteresis.

With the Hysteresis differing  between 2091 Bits 1,2 and 3.

As I have said , many times before, "I might be wrong" but the Cycle Time defined above corresponds exactly to that measured by my Power Meter.

Thanks for help, It is appreciated!

This post was modified 2 months ago by Mars

   
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(@iantelescope)
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@jamespa 

Hi James,

I agree completely , the MCS along with it's fellow "Charities" the NIC and now the RECC, should, at least ,  face competition .

The MCS description of itself as a "Registered Charity" is insulting!

When I asked the MCS for a statement about their status I was told that "the MCS is a private company , registered as a Charity because of it's Educational  commitments to the public , Energy saving"!

I , now in my 25 month, of trying to get an affordable Heat Pump , am furious with the MCS for re-instating my "installer", STRUCK-OFF by the NIC, on THREE occasions during the last 18 months.

The MCS is ONLY concerned with their annual subscription fees .............extracted from their members , the "installers"!

The MCS is a private company masquerading as a "charity".

ian

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


   
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(@iantelescope)
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@mike-h 

Hi Mike,

Again many thanks for your patience.

Water LAW , Display & Control?

I am still left wondering about my Samsung "Weather Compensation", aka, Water Law!

Why NOT use the "Weather Compensation complete with Water Temperature Controls?

Waether Compensation Working 2
Weather  compensation Working 1

This screen allows the display and control of "Weather Compensation" , So, Why NOT use it!

 

PWM:

I am still left wondering about my Pulse Width Modulation Motor control?

Why NOT use Pulse Width Modulation Motor control?

PWM theory 2

Why??

 

Water LAW Thermostat and Motor Control?

Why NOT use the Water Law Thermostat controls 2091 : Motor Pump 3 ?

1) Motor Pump 1

2) Motor Pump 2

OR 3)

3) Motor Pump 3

At the VERY LEAST SAMSUNG SHOULD EXPLAIN THEMSELVES!

 

This post was modified 2 months ago by Mars

   
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(@elton)
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Posted by: @elton

The installer seems to be gaining some national notoriety. See from 22:50 onwards. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001vnfx/rip-off-britain-series-15-40-my-house-is-a-building-site  

And good Lord, I just took a look at their Trust Pilot feedback, wish I hadn't! Some quite distressed individuals.

Just seen from some posts online that this outfit - Greener Living - is apparently closing or have closed. Anyone know any more about this? "UK's number 1 heat pump installer". Judging by their feedback, not a great surprise if it turns out they've fallen... or been pushed!

 


   
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