@lokisam That’s an interesting experiment, you say that it’s not as loud inside but still noisy nevertheless so you must have some pipe work noise as well I take it ? 

I would be interested to hear what the engineer has to say about it .

Posted by: @odynsfee

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@elton Not sure if the pipes actually touch were they pass through the walls as holes are sealed with mastic on entry and exit but I could explore .

You are spot on regarding the circ pumps amplifying the noise as the noise being emitted from the heat pump pipes is the same noise that’s being produced after the secondary pump but even louder.

I have noticed that when the pump is working hard i.e it’s below 3c the compressor is so loud that it almost drowns out the internal noise but as a matter of interest when the pump is just ticking over it is obviously quieter but the internal noise is still loud , if that makes sense.

i am finding this issue all consuming to be honest and I’m not sure if it will ever be resolved but I won’t be giving up trying quite yet.

 

This sounds like a problem that might be fixed, or certainly improved, with a bit of optimisation of the set up if you are prepared to provide some more information

Can you confirm 

• Model of heat pump?
• You mention a secondary pump, is this correct?
• Is the noise that is a problem coming from the primary pump or the secondary pump?
• Do you know the flow rate in the primary (it should tell you that on the display)
• Do you have a 4 port buffer, low loss header or plate heat exchanger between primary and secondary
• Floor area and construction of house

Im thinking that it might be possible to adjust the pumps as they shouldn't have to run so fast that its a problem, unless there is something very odd about your set up.  However there are a couple of other tweaks worth considering.

Just a thought - the introduction of a variable speed pump may help, but won't fully solve the issue. Fixed speed pump will always be set to work permanently at a rate safely above what is needed & it will hammer away at that speed. Variable pump = it goes up and down as needed (almost certainly lower speed most of the time). It is unlikely to solve the issue though which basically boils down to a nasty compressor which is feeding vibration into otherwise passive pipework and a bog standard circ pump.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @elton

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A boiler flue letting out steam and radiator pipe noise is very different to compressor resonance and heat pump noise.

All I was saying is that my gas boiler was louder than my ASHP (the latter is 30cm from a window to the room in which we spend most time) and no less annoying.  Both are quieter than my fridge, which frankly is annoying.

Elton: Loudness is one issue, but nature of the noise is key and tonality is fundamental. My clanking radiators are annoying, and some find the dawn chorus annoying. A low frequency, penetrating buzz from a heat pump appearing day after day, emanating in your home is quite different & research is present to show it has particular nuisance value.

Posted by: @elton

[fridges] are not 16kW units with large rotating parts bolted into a wall with large, fast flow pipework running across a home to/in bedrooms etc, bolted high upon a wall (vibration risk) casting low frequency noise at potentially over 76dB(A) within 5cm of neighbouring gardens (permitted under proposed revisions to MCS) in quiet suburbs. 

Im not sure many people put 16kW units on a wall and Im not sure where 76dB(A) comes from as the max allowed under PD is 37dB(A) at neighbouring property.

Elton: Plenty of 10- & 12kWs wall mounted & there will be 16kW ones. 76dB(A) - lets take a 65dB(A) model of which there are at least a couple of popular ones. The research (and your own experience) demonstrates for some models the rated dB(A) figure can be a bit of a nonsense. Research showed it can be 2-8dB(A) out and this is acknowledged by DESNZ and many others - and anecdotally folk report much much more dB(A) esp on defrosts. so lets take the middle route and lets assume we add +4dB(A) to account for fibs in manufacturer declared maximum dB(A). Then we add +6dB(A) for tonality which is universally agreed upon as the adjustment for course tonality (like for a Gen 6 Samsung) not yet not accounted for in MCS - which is a bit suicidal and we reach 75dB(A). And that is on day one - a fresh install, as quiet as the unit will ever get and not accounting for wear/greater noise potential over a decade or more.

With the removal of the 1m rule, 75-76dB(A) is not just possible, it is likely, and slap bang next to your patio. Worth noting that in Germany you are allowed a max of 50dB(A) at neighbour's boundary.

Posted by: @elton

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We are retrofitting our old housing stock with large, high powered outdoor units capable of airborne noise, vibration and fluid resonance.  

capable, but rarely reported.  Im not saying never reported but its relatively rare.  As I said my gas boiler caused fluid noises so, whilst Im not defending it, its not new either!

 Elton: this is not low frequency fluid resonance from a high powered compressor.

Posted by: @elton

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it is hoped somehow it will evaporate with newer, quieter units despite older units that will continue to be fitted for at least a decade).

I do get the point about older noiser units and do agree that there should be some requirement for heat pump installers to consider and advise the noise in the homeowners house not just the neighbouring house.  

 

I think you are somewhat over-egging the problem.  Im not saying it doesn't exist nor that it shouldnt be tackled, but to make it out to be quite so bad is going against what appears to be happening on the ground for the most part.  Almost everything we do has consequences, which we mostly have come to accept.  Should we ban cars because of road noise?

As a matter of interest what do you think we should do to heat our homes without overheating the planet?

Elton: I don't think one can over-egg it. Nesta's large scale survey shows 1/6 UK owners are unhappy with noise from their unit. And that is from early adopters with more money and larger homes living in less dense neighbourhoods an likely better (and detached) stock. Scaled up that's 4 million homes. And what about their neighbours? 

 

In response to what we should do to heat out homes without overheating the planet, the solution is clear & quite straightforward - address noise issues with heat pumps rather than deny them, then fit heat pumps.

- Require quieter units to be fitted - industry will adapt and improve - and make sure the definition of quiet is evidence-based & not skewed towards the issue being a myth. Also ensure vibration matters are understood, accounted for and ironed out. A lot of this is down to compressor tech - and there are quieter/better ones out there that could be fitted to all if noise was recognised as an issue.

- Have regs that force noise to be designed out of units, and regs that account for all nuisance factors leading to installs of quieter units.

Posted by: @jamespa

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In response to what we should do to heat out homes without overheating the planet, the solution is clear & quite straightforward - address noise issues with heat pumps rather than deny them, then fit heat pumps.

- Require quieter units to be fitted - industry will adapt and improve - and make sure the definition of quiet is evidence-based & not skewed towards the issue being a myth. Also ensure vibration matters are understood, accounted for and ironed out. A lot of this is down to compressor tech - and there are quieter/better ones out there that could be fitted to all if noise was recognised as an issue.

- Have regs that force noise to be designed out of units, and regs that account for all nuisance factors leading to installs of quieter units.

Unfortunately the UK is a small market, we are essentially reliant on the EU (where of course we no longer have a seat) to implement the manufacturing requirements and then take what we are given, unless we are prepared to pay extortionate prices for specials, which is not a mass market option.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Elton: I don't think one can over-egg it. Nesta's large scale survey shows 1/6 UK owners are unhappy with noise from their unit.

The figure is actually 15% which were either 'Not at all satisfied' or 'Not very satisfied' compared to 9% for the same question in relation to gas boilers.  That is evidence of a mild problem certainly (although its the sort of thing where there is a bias against new technology), but hardly a massive difference given that this survey inevitably covers older heat pumps not later ones whereas gas is mature and therefore might have been expected to be much lower.. 

Im not saying it doesnt need to be fixed, but its hardly cause for panic or lurid headlines in newspapers, given the clear direction of travel towards quieter units in recent years.

It would help if installers stopped oversizing units.  New houses, in reality, need a 4-6kW unit.  Many, probably most, retrofits need 8kW or less.  Only very large or very leaky houses need the 16kW units (which you quote as if they are typical).  

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @jamespa

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In response to what we should do to heat out homes without overheating the planet, the solution is clear & quite straightforward - address noise issues with heat pumps rather than deny them, then fit heat pumps.

- Require quieter units to be fitted - industry will adapt and improve - and make sure the definition of quiet is evidence-based & not skewed towards the issue being a myth. Also ensure vibration matters are understood, accounted for and ironed out. A lot of this is down to compressor tech - and there are quieter/better ones out there that could be fitted to all if noise was recognised as an issue.

- Have regs that force noise to be designed out of units, and regs that account for all nuisance factors leading to installs of quieter units.

Unfortunately the UK is a small market, we are essentially reliant on the EU (where of course we no longer have a seat) to implement the manufacturing requirements and then take what we are given, unless we are prepared to pay extortionate prices for specials, which is not a mass market option.

Elton: We can address this through tightening noise regs (bringing us more in line with many European nations & reflecting that noise is more of a risk in the UK than elsewhere - we aren't Norway with 50% of its homes detached and less dense, newer stock [and with supplementary wood burners for that matter]. 

And ensuring tonality is included. The existing units that do not have coarse tonality and are quieter will naturally be fitted and the noisier units squeezed out. And as a result we will i'm sure see more R&D into making units quieter for the UK market.

Coupled with a scrappage scheme (which I'd say should include Samsung Gen 6s), we'd be in a far better place.

It is entirely possible to mitigate the issue if the idea that noise is a "myth" is removed - as it represents a barrier to a sustainable rollout.

Posted by: @jamespa

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Elton: I don't think one can over-egg it. Nesta's large scale survey shows 1/6 UK owners are unhappy with noise from their unit.

The figure is actually 15% which were either 'Not at all satisfied' or 'Not very satisfied' compared to 9% for the same question in relation to gas boilers.  That is evidence of a mild problem certainly (although its the sort of thing where there is a bias against new technology), but hardly a massive difference given that this survey inevitably covers older heat pumps not later ones whereas gas is mature and therefore might have been expected to be much lower.. 

Im not saying it doesnt need to be fixed, but its hardly cause for panic or lurid headlines in newspapers, given the clear direction of travel towards quieter units in recent years.

Elton: The survey's 15% (which is within a whisker of 1/6 of owners) unhappy comes from a pool of early adopting advocates who I think all would agree are more likely to be very keen on the technology, will be more likely to have larger and detached home, unit newly installed etc etc. In all likelihood its a low estimate.

The gas boiler cohort's 9% (greater satisfaction with noise - less than1/10 unhappy) will be Joe public with units some of which will be up to 40 years old. My parent's boiler was 36 years old and mine was 28yrs old when replaced. They will come from all sorts of housing including super-dense. The two cohorts are not strongly comparable, and I think Nesta say something to imply that in the report.  

Newspapers reporting any noise issues frequently get lambasted which has had the effect of deterring anyone from being brave enough to openly refer to noise as a potential issue in any meaningful way. The Guardian intentionally stays away from it and the Telegraph hammers it then you see a weird paid-for article  saying they're quiet. There is distinct polarisation in the papers as elsewhere, which detracts from the evidence showing it is an issue that needs addressing.

 

Elton: We cannot rely on natural increased quietness of units coming onto the market. eg Samsung Gen 6s fill warehouses and will continue to be fitted for a decade. They need to be squeezed out by better noise regs and quieter units fitted as standard.

 

It would help if installers stopped oversizing units.  New houses, in reality, need a 4-6kW unit.  Many retrofits need 8kW or less.  Only very large or very leaky houses need the 16kW units you quote as if they are typical.  

 

Elton - yes I agree. Regs do need to be calibrated better, including on noise. In terms of unit size - we have a lot of very leaky houses. The oldest stock in Europe. As a country we have a context and this is not a straight race (unless it is to a cliff edge), and our context needs to be accounted for - including adopting the right noise regs, arguably they should be tighter than other European nations (who already make our regs look lax).

 

Posted by: @jamespa

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Newspapers reporting any noise issues frequently get lambasted which has had the effect of deterring anyone from being brave enough to openly refer to noise as a potential issue in any meaningful way. The Guardian intentionally stays away from it and the Telegraph hammers it then you see a weird paid-for article  saying they're quiet. There is distinct polarisation in the papers as elsewhere, which detracts from the evidence showing it is an issue that needs addressing.

The Telegraph teasers are in one sense baffling and in another sense easy to understand.  Most people only look at the teasers and of course they have a political objective.  The article needs to be truthful else they get sued.  I agree that polarisation detracts from the truth, but sadly that is the world we live in (and its getting worse not better)

Posted by: @jamespa

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Elton: We cannot rely on natural increased quietness of units coming onto the market. eg Samsung Gen 6s fill warehouses and will continue to be fitted for a decade. They need to be squeezed out by better noise regs and quieter units fitted as standard.

Samsung Gen 6 do seem to be a particular problem, presumably because they are both very common and very cheap.  That said, in the right place, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them so far as I can tell so no reason to 'ban' them.  I wouldn't buy one myself because of their ugly appearance, noise level and cr*p UI.  I bought a Vaillant because its significantly better on all three counts.

In a sense I agree with your conclusion, but in another sense I am conscious that regulations need to be simple and practical.  The current noise rules appear to do a reasonable job of protecting neighbours (which is the role of the planning system), but of course offer no protection to householders themselves.  It would be wrong to build into planning rules restrictions that protect the householder with the heat pump, that is not their purpose.  Perhaps building regulations could.  Part E talks about construction in relation to noise, but doesn't refer to plant. 

I suspect that better education is the practical solution so that people make choices that fit their circumstances and installers provide the relevant information on the equipment they are recommending.  As I said I chose the Vaillant partly because I knew that the unit was going 30cm from my living room window!  I even tested the noise level by simulating it with an air conditioner I have to check it wasn't going to be a problem.

Im still surprised BTW that 9% of people aren't satisfied with the noise from their gas boiler.  That says something.  I strongly suspect that these aren't actually the 'old' boilers you refer to, they are new combination boilers which make up 80% of the market and also make a racket in a place where its noticeable!  I also suspect that a good proportion of combis are fitted in rooms where the noise they make could be a problem.

because of their ugly appearance, noise level and cr*p UI. 

Oi! That’s a yellow card now 😂😂

Seriously though the 5kW gen 6 doesn’t have a noise issue. It seems to be the bigger ones that do. 

Posted by: @bontwoody

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because of their ugly appearance, noise level and cr*p UI. 

 

Oi! That’s a yellow card now 😂😂

Seriously though the 5kW gen 6 doesn’t have a noise issue. It seems to be the bigger ones that do. 

 

Fair enough and very believable.  I was responding to a comment which seemed to be suggesting that their use should be somehow restricted by regulation. 

I will rephrase (changes in italics)

Samsung Gen 6 do seem, by repute, to be a particular problem, presumably because they are both very common and very cheap, however Im led to believe that the problem is with the larger units not the smaller ones.  In the right place, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them so far as I can tell so no reason to 'ban' them.  I chose not to buy one for myself myself because of their appearance which I find ugly (but beauty is in the eyes of the beholder), noise level for the (larger) unit that I would need, and limited inbuilt control capabilities.

@jamespa 

We urgently need MCS020 to include a tonality measure. Coarse tonality is counted as +6dB(A) to noise levels - and when you consider 10dB(A) = a doubling in noise (the measure being logarithmic) that is material by anyone's reckoning). No one - DESNZ, CIEH, IoA and industry - dispute tonality is a material factor in noise nuisance (although industry & others focussed on targets, sales & hoodwinking rather than sustainability might prefer that it is kicked into the long grass as an issue). Units that have not been rated for tonality need to be urgently so we don't continue to install units that would fail Env. Health tests for noise nuisance (BS4142) yet pass as PD putting installers & owners in a risky grey area. Without tonality, the new MCS020 creates more risk.

We also urgently need to standardise how noise is measured for heat pumps, as currently manufacturers do not need to declare their actual maximums - covered in DESNZ, Wales PD and EHPA Annex 51 reports.

I wouldn't advocate banning Samsung Gen 6s, and agree the smaller/less powerful any unit is the less likely it is to be noisy. I'd advocate the larger ones being ruled out for installs by enhanced noise regs that place it as non-PD for many installs, and a scrappage scheme for units that have been installed in breach of PD when adjusted for tonality.

It really is not a hard nut to crack - I'm convinced the noise issue and vibration risk can be solved quite quickly, but the overwhelming barrier is this idea noise is a "myth" and can be left unaddressed that helps sales and potentially targets but represents a risky strategy for sustainability of rollout. Policy is torn between safeguards and expedience of rollout. Policy has leant towards expedience of rollout at the expense of safeguards (thanks in part to messaging that noise issues are myth & "hilarious" - including from the Guardian which I and others find quite offensive given how life-changing noise nuisance can be). Short term lax and/or poorly enforced regs (which have also allowed all the cowboys) facilitate more installs and PR like "look at how many more we installed this Feb than last". Long term it is suicidal.

I saw on a forum the other day that an estate agent had advised someone to avoid buying homes with heat pump already fitted, and to be honest I think quite a few people, including on this forum, can understand that given it can all - because of install quality, poor regs, poor model selection, poor enforcement etc -  be a bit of a roll of the dice (cost/noise etc). Poorly calibrated noise regs do not help. I would personally not buy a home with a heat pump fitted unless I received enough off it to be able to retrofit a gas boiler if needed, although I might have one installed myself to the house I am in knowing what I now know. 

Posted by: @elton

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and a scrappage scheme for units that have been installed in breach of PD when adjusted for tonality.

I have a real problem with that as its effectively retrospective planning legislation.  What was legal as regards building has to remain legal, otherwise we kill off most development because there is too much uncertainty.  If you want to tank the economy, then accepting the concept of retrospective planning legislation is a great way to go about it.

I reiterate that the problem, according to the NESTA study of which you are so fond, is not that much worse than it is for gas boilers, and nobody is suggesting retrospectively making the noisy ones illegal.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed, but any fixing action needs to be proportionate.

Personally I would support better standards for declaring noise, including tonality.  However I reiterate that this is difficult for the UK without incurring excessive cost (or driving manufacturers away) because we are such a small market.  Somehow we need to persuade the EU!   I would also support the development of a noise simulator because '37dBA' is meaningless to almost everybody (Im frankly amazed that such a thing doesn't already exist commonly in the wild).  I would equally support reviews of heat pumps (why are there so few) which comment on noise as well as other matters.  That said, if you want a quiet heat pump, Quietmark rate them already and they do take into account tonality.

In an ideal world everything would be designed and installed so that it never causes a problem.  Unfortunately nothing is like that, because the building trade is imperfect, manufacturers of all things are selective in the information they publish, and for 100 other reasons.  150,000 people per year are apparently unhappy with the noise made by their new gas boiler, more than the total number of heat pumps installed by some margin!  Caveat emptor applies to heating as much as everything else, we cant, realistically, regulate everything perfectly; the subset of your suggestions above go a long way without becoming overbearing.