@iantelescope

I am sorry to hear of your woes.

Unfortunately there would appear to be no regulatory body responsible for ensuring the correct installation and commissioning of heat pumps. Maybe you should have a word with your MP.

I am surprised to also hear that your incompetent installer has once more been reinstated after previously been struck off twice. The present regulatory systems appear to be highly flawed.

@derek-m 

My MSP ( Member of the Scottish Parliament ) obtained the initial "down payment " from the Scottish Government , HES EST on Dec 15th 2022 ..................

.......despite the absence of Documentation proving that the Heat pump was then  working.

To get the remainder of the repayments , some £4000, I will still need to get confirmation that the Heat pump is working , and efficient.

A rock and a Hard place !

ian

Posted by: @iantelescope

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@cathoderay 

 

5 Loss Measurements

I have compared the Energy Consumed when fitted with a  Worcester-Bosch Gas boiler with the energy consumed by the Heat Pump.

The Heat pump consumes  1/2.2,  circa 50 % of the energy compared to the Gas Boiler.

But, Electricity, is locally, 3.97   times the cost of Gas.

....

When used, the buffer tank  Buffer increases the losses......!!!

 

 

OK, so I presume that the comparisons are for comparable years/periods?

Im also assuming this is averaged over the heating season not DHW only or only a part of the season

If both of these are the case then you are apparently getting a COP of 2, whereas you should be getting around 3 or just over.  This, in 'normal' times, would mean break vs electricity even or a little better.  Unfortunately we are not in normal times, for some reason the ratio of electricity price to gas price has gone from typically 3:1 pre war, to 4:1 post war.  Not sure what the explanation - it doesn't make sense and I suspect is politically motivated. 

You should be aiming to get back to an average COP of 3 or above

Most likely

• the PHE and Buffer tank are increasing the required flow temp reducing efficiency, more than 2% for each degree of increase in flow temp (so a PHE could easily account for 10-20%)
• possibly the buffer tank is too small thus not stratified and/or the pumps either side are not correctly adjusted, in which case that's another 10% efficiency loss
• Possibly weather compensation ('water law' in Samsung terms) is not correctly set up.

If you could clarify the following it might help narrow the diagnosis

Is the 50l buffer tank plumber 2 pipe, 3 pipe or 4 pipe?

What temp do your emitters run at when its the design outside air temperature?

Can you give us example measurements of the four temperatures you have measured?

Also how you calculate '25% loss'. Its very difficult to 'lose' even 1kW without something, somewhere, getting jolly hot?

Posted by: @iantelescope

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@derek-m 

My MSP ( Member of the Scottish Parliament ) obtained the initial "down payment " from the Scottish Government , HES EST on Dec 15th 2022 ..................

.......despite the absence of Documentation proving that the Heat pump was then  working.

To get the remainder of the repayments , some £4000, I will still need to get confirmation that the Heat pump is working , and efficient.

A rock and a Hard place !

ian

 

 

 

As you have discovered, there appears to be no mechanism for consumers to get poorly installed and commissioned systems rectified.

Have paid your installer?

Have you tried consumer protection?

Posted by: @derek-m

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As you have discovered, there appears to be no mechanism for consumers to get poorly installed and commissioned systems rectified.

Isn't this what MCS is supposed to do.  Government, as I understand it, view them as the mechanism to ensure standards are maintained and they speak extensively of consumer protection.  If they don't do this then....

@derek-m 

My Heat Pump and the "Charities"

Over the last 15 months initially started by complaining to the MCS.

The MCS passed me on to the NIC.

The NIC Struck OFF my "installer " for the first time.

My "installer" being then "Struck OFF " was " beyond the Control of the NIC and  there was nothing that could be done ."

I was told to approach the RECC , who also advised that my "Installer" was beyond their control, having been Struck OFF.

My "installer" was Temporarily re-instated "in order to provide evidence that the Heat Pump was working ......and that I could be repaid my  initial down payment of £6000."

My "installer" was then Struck OFF for a second time for an offence against another customer.

My "installer " being then again "Struck OFF " was "beyond the control of the NIC and the RECC ".

The MCS,NIC ,RECC ,et al,  are, officially, "Charities" being supplied with limited powers under a "Light Regulation regime".

Finally, I was passed to Citizens Advice who passed me on to  the Dispute Resolution Process.

The Dispute Resolution authority said I had "No Documentary Proof of the Operational efficiency  of the Heat pump" ........and my case was stopped!!

......On and ON.....

ian

Posted by: @jamespa

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Posted by: @derek-m

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As you have discovered, there appears to be no mechanism for consumers to get poorly installed and commissioned systems rectified.

Isn't this what MCS is supposed to do.  Government, as I understand it, view them as the mechanism to ensure standards are maintained and they speak extensively of consumer protection.  If they don't do this then....

As far as I am aware, MCS set standards and charges installer's for accreditation, but no one actually appears to inspect and sign off installations, hence the number of 'cowboys' out there.

@iantelescope

Another fine example of 'rip off Britain'.

@iantelescope Have you any rights under the Consumer Rights Act 1975? Have you considered signing up to the Which Legal advice programme? I used them to resolve a breach of contract with my intended installer. They, the installer, subsequently went into liquidation but at least I recovered my substantial deposit with the guidance from the Which team.

@derek-m 

Relaxation.............................,  discussing the Technical details of Heat Pumps .............................Not the Politics!

Losses..........................the causes

Heat Pump or Heat Exchanger loss?

I accept the comments about the source of my losses in my Heat Pump.

Yes, The Losses are "caused" , in part, by the Heat Pump having to increase the pipe water Temperature to allow the Heat Exchanger to supply an increased Water Temperature to the Radiator Circuit.

But, If the Heat were not installed there would be no need to increase the Heat Pump output Water Temperature in the first place!

Loss to my kitchen

With my Heat Exchanger being installed in my kitchen I also accept the comments about the heat loss being used to heat the kitchen.

Yes, The Heat Exchanger Heat Loss will heat my kitchen...........but I do not live in the kitchen.

The Heat exchanger heat loss should be diverted to my cold winter living room.

Range of the compressor Inverter power

My Heat pump fails to provide enough heat when the outside temperature descends below -3 C.

My Heat pump "short Cycles" when the Outside Temperature approaches +15 C, caused by the inability of the Inverter to provide a minimum Compressor power.

What is the Ratio of the Maximum available power to Minimum available power for my Samsung Heat Pump ?

Loss due to Buffer tanks

My Heat Pump is fitted with a valve allowing me to use or not use a 50 l buffer tank.

When used , the Buffer tank consumes , or looses , circa 10% to my kitchen.

The tank , installed to reduce "Short Cycling" has little effect upon my "Short Cycling" but never the less consumes , or looses yet more energy!

ian

@derek-m

Interesting reading your post

I have a few comments.

Because us engineers have carry out a full heat loss (instead of over size guessing ie Gas Boilers) and therefore design under MCS rules a heating system to work in you area.

If that area has an average worse winter temp of -3⁰, then thats what we design you're system to.

If you then experience colder temperatures than this, im afraid you may not be warm, it's not that the heat pump not working, it's the whole design that's not working, because it was only designed to -3⁰.

If you actually wanted the system to work when it's -10⁰ for example, then you should have made you installer aware of this, in turn then the system would have been designed accordingly to keep you warm up to -10⁰

It's like you buy a car that can only 50mph, but then complain it won't do 60mph.

Short cycling in milder weather, can be improved by turning the whole system off sooner, with my own system that's is 14⁰ ambient.

Remove more TRVS, bathrooms, main living areas. downstairs WC got example.

Buffers are a get out of jail card for both the manufacturers and some installers.

They create distortion, which then reduces efficiency, as you mentioned.

We only ever with a hydronic break (Buffers/LLH) as an absolute last resort.

Regards 

Ken

@iantelescope

Whilst there will be some heat loss from your heat exchanger into your kitchen area, if the heat exchanger is adequately insulated then this should be minimal compared to your actual heat emitters.

If you are getting different temperatures in the various rooms then I would suspect that the water flow around your system has not been correctly balanced.

If you cannot achieve adequate indoor temperatures during cold weather, this could be due to undersized heat emitters for the actual heat loss, though having lower water temperature at the heat emitters due to having a PHE and buffer tank could also be the cause.

During milder weather conditions all heat pumps will cycle on and off. How frequent does your heat pump do so?