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My ASHP installation journey in Monmouthshire, South Wales

novemberRomeo · 2021-10-27T13:08:39Z

I started this off in the 'introduce yourself' thread, but wanted to give updates and didn't want to hijack the conversation there, so have created a new thread.... I live in a converted barn in Monmouthshire (South Wales). It was converted around 10 years ago and we bought it 7 years ago. It currently has an oil boiler which has been working well. However, last month, our oil delivery driver spotted a tiny crack in the top of the tank and refused to fill it up. We immediately entered 'panic mode' at the fear of running out of hot water (not using heating at the moment but that will be needed in the next month or so...) as we only have about a quarter of a tank left. I initially reached out to a couple of local heating companies to enquire about replacing the oil tank. It turns out that our current tank is located in a position that would not comply with current build regs (and probably never did) and so replacing it involves more than a simple swap-over: we'd have to either relocate it or build a fire-proof barrier around the tank to meet regs. Most companies didn't want to touch it with a bargepole, although one firm quoted £3,500 to replace the tank and make it regs-compliant. Over the last few years, we've gradually installed air to air heat pumps in most of our rooms because in the summer the house gets very, very hot. It's south/south west facing and we have lots of floor to ceiling glass, so it basically acts like a greenhouse. We've been really pleased with the low running costs, which made me think about exploring using an electric system to replace the oil boiler. Much googling later and I made a few enquiries to local MSC accredited ASHP installers. Our house should be well suited to ASHP because we have underfloor heating throughout - no radiators - and I was also optimistically hoping the costs would be favourable with the RHI scheme. 5 weeks in, I have: * received one quote of £9.5k for install of 7kw Valiant Aerotherm Plus, 200ltr Valiant tank and Valiant controller. Estimated RHI payment of £9.1k. The quote was based on floor plans, an EPC from 2013 and the building survey we commissioned before buying the house. They've emphasised it's an estimate and will be confirmed after paying £500 for them to do the heat calc survey and new EPC. Originally I thought these guys were good, but I've emailed and phoned a couple of times over the last few weeks with questions and they've stopped getting back to me. Maybe they're just too busy. * received one quote of £18.9k for install of 2 x 10kw Valiant Aerotherm Plus, 200ltr tank and controller. For this one, the company sent someone out to do a free heat loss calculation - they were here for about 2 hours measuring all the rooms up, so I'd imagine the 2 x 10kw spec is right but am hoping it is way over-egged. They've not included any information on estimated RHI payments. * had a visit from a company to do a quick initial assessment and chat, he estimated 12 - 14k but wouldn't be able to give a final quote unless I paid £299 for a heat loss calculation. * had a visit from another company to do a quick initial assessment and chat, he estimated 14 - 16k but wouldn't be able to give a final quote unless I paid £250 for a heat loss calculation. I actually felt the most positive about this company, all my communications with them have been really good, they are clearly knowledgeable and appear to have a good reputation. They also promise a 10 year parts and labour warranty, which is way more than the others. They have only been in business 4 years though so how worthwhile this will be remains to be seen. That said, I agreed to pay the £250 for the heat loss calculations, this happened last week, so I am expecting to hear the results of that and get a final quote in the next week or two. I've found it really hard to assess and compare suppliers, particularly because they are unable to quote without first paying for the heat loss survey. Annoyingly, none of the companies were willing to accept heat loss survey results from another company, which would effectively mean paying for the same survey several times just to get comparative quotes. One potential pitfall to my switch to an ASHP is needing a water tank. Our current system is a combi oil boiler and we have no standalone tank. We don't have any suitable space inside the house to locate a tank. Three of the suppliers so far have said we will be fine to locate the water tank outside next to the ASHP if we build a suitably insulated wooden shed structure. One supplier insisted this was a terrible idea and said the tank must be inside the house. I don't know who to believe. I'd welcome input from anyone in a similar situation. I'll update you all in due course...

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Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)

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Mars

(@editor)

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Joined: 4 years ago

Posts: 3366

26/11/2021 3:47 pm

@novemberromeo, I know you already pulled the trigger and had your heat pump installed, but we did discuss your case with Emma about the sizing of your heat pump. Jump to around 17:49 of this interview.

Buy Bodge Buster – Homeowner Air Source Heat Pump Installation Guide: https://amzn.to/3NVndlU
From Zero to Heat Pump Hero: https://amzn.to/4bWkPFb

Subscribe and follow our Homeowners’ Q&A heat pump podcast

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novemberRomeo

(@novemberromeo)

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Joined: 4 years ago

Posts: 33

Topic starter 29/11/2021 5:18 pm

thanks @Mars - just watched it, and very interesting!

👍

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novemberRomeo

(@novemberromeo)

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Joined: 4 years ago

Posts: 33

Topic starter 06/12/2021 2:03 pm

Two weeks have passed since everything was commissioned. The ASHP has used 520 kWh of electricity so far, averaging 35 kWh per day (excluding the first day when we used 64 whilst everything was getting up to temp).

I've kept the DHW set to 52 degrees and the heating flow rate set to 40 degrees. Everything seems to be working ok. Most rooms are warm all the time. The larger / less insulated rooms struggle to maintain temperature overnight when it's cold outside, but we had the same problem with the oil boiler. We use the Air To Air heat pumps in those rooms to give a quick blast of heat to get it back up to temperature first thing in the morning and that works fine...

I'm wondering whether it's worth experimenting with the weather compensation curve or not, as 35 kWh per day in Winter seems fairly reasonable.

I've seen comments in the forum along the lines of "your heat pump is driving down the motorway at 90mph in third gear" and am wondering how I can find out how mine is performing, other than simply looking at the number of kWh units used each day. What are the metrics I should be looking at to determine if:

a) heat pump is adequately sized (remember I settled on the 12kw pump after being recommended an 8, 12 and 20) - is there any way to know if I made the right choice?

b) heat pump is running efficiently

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batalto

(@batalto)

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06/12/2021 2:20 pm

@novemberromeo I would move to weather compensation as its pretty much bound to save you money. It will lower and raise your flow rate temperatures as you need them lowered/raised. At the moment I assume given the cold snap that 40 easily meets your heat needs? Or did it get a bit chilly? On warmer days, you probably don't need 40 at all, so why bother heating to 40?

12kW Midea ASHP - 8.4kw solar - 29kWh batteries
262m2 house in Hampshire
Current weather compensation: 47@-2 and 31@17
My current performance can be found - HERE
Heat pump calculator spreadsheet - HERE

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Kev M

(@kev-m)

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06/12/2021 3:47 pm

@novemberromeo

Are you controlling room temps with a thermostat? if so I would agree with @batalto that it's definitely worth trying weather compensation. If (like me) you're trying to heat the house using flow temps only, if the ASHP isn't heating your whole house at 40C, it definitely won't do it at 35C.

Try Graham's article here for a dscussion on ASHP sizing. I've asked him a follow on question.

RENEWABLEHEATINGHUB.CO.UK "https://renewableheatinghub.co.uk/when-is-a-kw-not-a-kw#comment-923"

When is a kW not a kW? | Renewable Heating Hub

As an industry we don't do very much to convince people that we are not a bunch of liars. If a homeowner wants a heat pump the first hurdle is a heat pump surveyor has to come to your house and measure it up. We do this so a calculation can be done to work out what the maximum heating requirement for the house is. It is now accepted that this is what you have to do.

52C is quite hot for HW but it's a personal preference.

35 kWh per day isn't bad at all (is that for heating and HW?); I've averaged 29 just for heating.

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novemberRomeo

(@novemberromeo)

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Posts: 33

Topic starter 16/12/2021 4:34 pm

Just a little update since my last post...

I've since discovered that our UFH has a weather compensation unit (this was there before the ASHP was installed), which is responsible for mixing the boiler water with cold water... and thus completely ruining the efficiency of the ASHP because it doesn't matter what flow temp I set in the ASHP, the UFH weather compensation unit is then mixing it with cold water to lower the temp!

I've asked my installer to come back and remove this, as well as the other UFH mixers, which should hopefully simplify the system and improve efficiency.

In the meantime, I've reduced the flow temperature from 40 to 35. I am now averaging 19 kWh per day for heat and hot water, although the last week has been much milder outside than before the switch, so some of this reduction is going to be due to that.

👍

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