Low loss header
Does anyone have the latest info from freedom on low loss headers? I asked my fitter to remove the current one and he won't do so because he said it would invalidate the warranty.
I'm sure someone said it's been updated in their documents to not be required anymore.
I've spoken with Freedom and after a really long and useful call (the guy has very helpful in talking over the system) he said the following things at the high level
- There is no reason why you need a low loss header and they will warranty a system without one provided the proper calcs have been done and your system has been designed/confirmed to work without one
- They say a low loss header loses you around 10%-15% efficiency
- They put them in (low loss headers) to ensure customers don't have issues through poor design from the trade
- Weather compensation is set high as they expect the installer to have done the work to set the correct curve
- Midea specify low loss headers in their documents so Freedom is just repeating the statement
- Ideally you should run off the controller and not a thermostat
- They do have an additional sensor to monitor return temps that allows the system to adjust weather compensation on the fly (or that was my understanding)
Now its down to me to see if I can get my fitter to actually make the changes and calculations needed.
Posted by: @bataltoI've spoken with Freedom and after a really long and useful call (the guy has very helpful in talking over the system) he said the following things at the high level
- There is no reason why you need a low loss header and they will warranty a system without one provided the proper calcs have been done and your system has been designed/confirmed to work without one
- They say a low loss header loses you around 10%-15% efficiency
- They put them in (low loss headers) to ensure customers don't have issues through poor design from the trade
- Weather compensation is set high as they expect the installer to have done the work to set the correct curve
- Midea specify low loss headers in their documents so Freedom is just repeating the statement
- Ideally you should run off the controller and not a thermostat
- They do have an additional sensor to monitor return temps that allows the system to adjust weather compensation on the fly (or that was my understanding)
Now its down to me to see if I can get my fitter to actually make the changes and calculations needed.
10-15% is a lot of money at upcoming prices (I appreciate not so much for you personally!). But sounds like good news. Maybe your guy could bypass the LLH but leave in place just in case?
@kev-m speaking frankly I'm not sure my installer is up for it. He's more of a plumber by his own admission. I might need to call freedom and see if they can recommend an engineer Vs a technician.
The low loss header (LLH) is typically used to ensure flow rates and reduce call outs due to restrictive conditions in retro fit setups.
whilst they do work, in practice there is a trade off as the secondary pump, the one which then becomes the heating circulator, has no modulating control from the heat pump. A modern heat pump, such as the Midea, controls flow temp using a combination of fan speed, compressor duty and circulator flow rate. It’s extremely efficient when used this way.
When you separate the ASHP and house circulation this way, the only compensated flow is the primaries from the ASHP.
ideally we wouldn’t use them. In practice there are a number of issues.
1- lack of maintenance leads to flow issues. An LLH Reduces load and gives a low speed area of water in the vessel, this naturally aerates and drops dirt to the internal magnet. Therefore extending the period between faults. It’s a fix rather than a cure.
2- retrofit plumbing can have a number of issues. Unknown pipe routes. Unknown sizing etc. separating the flows means we don’t have to worry too much about that.
3- the manual actually shows it installed. Most installers will not go off piste and the manual is gospel and the word of the warranty gods. Most of it is pure nonsense but it will cause a bun fight in the event of a claim.
there are situations where an LLH is a must. Micro bore setups will not generally allow the high flow rates needed for heat pumps and will constantly fault on flow. LLH fixes that.
In an ideal world, we wouldn’t bother with separation at all. If your plumbing system is good, then theoretically it will work fine. It’s an acceptance of liability. If you were asking me as an installer, I’d be ok with it, I’d just provision to retro fit later, so leave space in the pipework for the LLH and a pump. Four lever valves to allow a section of pipe to be easily removed on the flow and return. Probably install the auto bypass in that section as it can go when an LLH is used.
hope some of this helps.
Internationally recognised award winning installer of heat pumps and stuff
@saenergy I have a feeling you are the person who has been recommended to me by Freedom to modify my system. I sent you an email yesterday (if you're that same SA energy they recommended)
ah that is likely. I’ll be in touch. Been laid up with a broken back.
Internationally recognised award winning installer of heat pumps and stuff
@saenergy that'll be you. The nice lady on the phone said you were at home because of an injury and were just doing emails etc - and clearly checking forums. Hope you make a speedy recovery. In the meantime happy to share any info you might need to understand my system/issues I am trying to fix.
Posted by: @bataltoany idea when you might be able to come to make those system changes?
hi @batalto I’m interested in what you did in the end. Did you manage to remove your low loss header? What was the layout you chose. I’m thinking of leaving the LLH in place and connect the returns through it and then bypass the two flows, connecting them together, with an air vent included.
- 21 Forums
- 1,989 Topics
- 43.4 K Posts
- 30 Online
- 2,311 Members
Join Us!
Heat Pump Dramas?
Thinking about installing a heat pump but unsure where to start? Already have one but it’s not performing as expected? Or are you locked in a frustrating dispute with an installer or manufacturer? We’re here to help.
✅ Pre-Installation Planning
✅ Post-Installation Troubleshooting
✅ Performance Optimisation
✅ Complaint Support (Manufacturer & Installer)
Latest Posts
-
RE: Can I add an EV charger to a full consumer unit by coupling with a garage DB?
That depends on whether your EV charger requires Type-A...
By Transparent , 20 minutes ago
-
RE: (How) does your heat pump control its water pump?
@jamespa Heat pump as per my footer, it has an optio...
By bontwoody , 2 hours ago
-
RE: Plug and play solar. Thoughts?
I agree with @robl that the G98 testing regime stipula...
By Transparent , 3 hours ago
-
Low Loss Headers and Buffer tanks - Your experiences wanted
Im in the process of writing up a piece highlighting th...
By JamesPa , 5 hours ago
-
RE: Adding data centre electricity costs to domestic energy bills?
@jancold I received an acknowledgement too. Toodles.
By Toodles , 6 hours ago
-
RE: Are MCS are finally improving (some of) their guidelines?
This should be a step in the right direction. One of th...
By Mars , 16 hours ago
-
As We Head Into Spring and Summer… What’s Your Favourite Energy-Saving Tip?
With warmer weather on the horizon, our heat pumps will...
By Mars , 16 hours ago
-
Sorry for the delay in replying. We are now able to acc...
By Simon and Zoe , 18 hours ago
-
RE: In the middle of an ASHP installation - a few questions (and issues)
@editor sure. The 12kW Clivet.
By benson , 24 hours ago
-
RE: Database of heat pump performance data?
I cant agree more. You need a heat pump that is ri...
By JamesPa , 1 day ago
-
RE: Newbie out of her depth – Samsung AE120RXYDEG 12kW heat pump
Update for those following this thread.Finally got the ...
By BAMi , 1 day ago
-
Dont worry about this. Long story and discussion but d...
By JamesPa , 1 day ago
-
@eliuccio I was wondering how things are going with t...
By JamesPa , 1 day ago
-
-
RE: Volumisers in Heat Pump Systems: Does Placement Matter?
No not auto adapt running hotter at cheaper times coole...
By Gary , 2 days ago
-
RE: Ecodan Auto Adapt Questions
Hi @richard24738 we weren’t happy with our FTC Contr...
By SUNandAIR , 2 days ago
-
RE: To relocate or add extra PV panels..advice required
You can't forecast the annual generation by simple extr...
By JohnR , 2 days ago
-
RE: Additional Battery v Wind Turbine v Ripple
@lucia Yes, that is the response to which I referred ea...
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
RE: Is it worth siting panels on an East facing roof?
Yes. Thanks all. I have used the guides and have found ...
By Carpenterstation , 3 days ago
Latest Topics
-
(How) does your heat pump control its water pump?
By JamesPa 5 hours ago
-
Plug and play solar. Thoughts?
By Lucia 4 days ago
-
By JamesPa 4 days ago
-
Vaillant water pressure gauge vs Analogue gauge
By jeegnesh 4 days ago
-
Database of heat pump performance data?
By madbilly 5 days ago