Posted by: @jamespa

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You have previously commented that there is little or no correlation between retail price and carbon intensity.

What was the context of my comment @jamespa ?

Are we still talking 'Storage Batteries'?
or was I referring to the cost of flying in fruit from the equator?

I thought I ought to check before I flew off at a tangerine...

Posted by: @transparent

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Posted by: @jamespa

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You have previously commented that there is little or no correlation between retail price and carbon intensity.

What was the context of my comment @jamespa ?

Are we still talking 'Storage Batteries'?
or was I referring to the cost of flying in fruit from the equator?

I thought I ought to check before I flew off at a tangerine...

home storage batteries.

Are you possibly thinking of this conversation where the price-points in the Agile tariff were being assessed against carbon reduction?

I think that must be it thanks.  I see that it was in fact @majordennisbloodnok who was saying that there was poor correlation.

Posted by: @jamespa

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I think that must be it thanks.  I see that it was in fact @majordennisbloodnok who was saying that there was poor correlation.

Yup, that was me. My reasoning was that when I looked back over historical figures time slots that were cheap often failed to match times when carbon emissions were low. Not an exhaustive statistical exercise; merely a practical conclusion I couldn't rely on the two as proxies for each other.

For the benefit of others who come across this topic, @jamespa and I have recently discussed factors which will affect future tariffs.

The issue of carbon emissions is tricky to take into account.
I used to have access to National Grid data which identified the energy-mix being delivered at the Bulk Supply Point (BSP) level, which is good granularity.
But that data source has been curtailed. It had resulted from a Network Innovation Project which has now ceased.

I know that NESO hold this data because it forms part of their market procurement system.
That's the mechanism used to buy in the required electricity across Britain to ensure there is adequate supply to meet demand for every half-hour period.

I probably need to find out if NESO intend opening up their data-sets to 3rd parties, like myself.

But all of this has little bearing on the Business Case for Batteries, which we're addressing here in this topic.

How green is off-peak electricity is a relevant aspect because we can all choose an option which will help the planet even if it can’t be justified on financial grounds alone. But to make that decision requires data.

Posted by: @judith

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How green is off-peak electricity is a relevant aspect because we can all choose an option which will help the planet even if it can’t be justified on financial grounds alone. But to make that decision requires data.

I agree. I happen to use the carbon intensity API from https://www.carbonintensity.org.uk/ to get an idea of the relative greenness or dirtiness of the grid electrons at any particular time. Since I use Home Assistant to pull that data, that means I do have history, albeit only about the last six months or so ('cos of a botched upgrade on my part that lost data from before that - ho, hum...).

Neat analysis! Thanks 

I've been looking at that Carbon Intensity data.

The regional data is useful, but it's not at the granularity we require for GB to attain Net Zero.

Most of our future electricity generation is going to occur at the 33kV and 132kV levels.
Although hydro can be controlled manually, solar and wind cannot.
There are times when 'local' renewable generation sites need to be curtailed due to excess supply.

This is an ANM map showing how much electricity is likely to need rejecting at a particular transformer on the grid over the course of a year:

My view is that the excess generation should be absorbed by storage batteries rather than discarded.

Yes that requires a change of policy to allow Nodal Pricing, but achieving Net Zero has to be based on the science rather than political expediency.

There is clearly little correlation in renewable generation across an entire DNO region.
Cambridge could have an over-supply of solar power, whilst Bedford, 30m to the West, is in energy deficit.
Those areas are served by different sections of the 400kV national Transmission Grid.

There is a much better correlation between carbon intensity and weather at the Bulk Supply Point level.

The following map shows the area served by a BSP transformer on the north-east corner of Dartmoor in Devon.

Those three green/yellow-shaded areas are surrounded by a sea of red dots.
Each red dot is a transformer site operating at or beyond its capacity for 'reverse power' (ie local generation).

We must be able to assess the energy-mix (ie Carbon Intensity) at that level in order to better use renewable generation sources.

Posted by: @transparent

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I've been looking at that Carbon Intensity data.

The regional data is useful, but it's not at the granularity we require for GB to attain Net Zero.

I agree. It's a case of using the best we have available right now to make more informed personal decisions. It's not a sustitute for more granular data for more rigorous analysis, though.

Posted by: @transparent

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I've been looking at that Carbon Intensity data.

The regional data is useful, but it's not at the granularity we require for GB to attain Net Zero.

Most of our future electricity generation is going to occur at the 33kV and 132kV levels.
Although hydro can be controlled manually, solar and wind cannot.
There are times when 'local' renewable generation sites need to be curtailed due to excess supply.

This is an ANM map showing how much electricity is likely to need rejecting at a particular transformer on the grid over the course of a year:

My view is that the excess generation should be absorbed by storage batteries rather than discarded.

Yes that requires a change of policy to allow Nodal Pricing, but achieving Net Zero has to be based on the science rather than political expediency.

There is clearly little correlation in renewable generation across an entire DNO region.
Cambridge could have an over-supply of solar power, whilst Bedford, 30m to the West, is in energy deficit.
Those areas are served by different sections of the 400kV national Transmission Grid.

There is a much better correlation between carbon intensity and weather at the Bulk Supply Point level.

The following map shows the area served by a BSP transformer on the north-east corner of Dartmoor in Devon.

Those three green/yellow-shaded areas are surrounded by a sea of red dots.
Each red dot is a transformer site operating at or beyond its capacity for 'reverse power' (ie local generation).

We must be able to assess the energy-mix (ie Carbon Intensity) at that level in order to better use renewable generation sources.

All very interesting and particularly interesting how local the pinch points are.

How to get from here to the binary decision 'should I get a battery given that there is no financial business case' still escapes me.  I rather have the impression from what you say that the answer is maybe, and maybe not, we just don't know (and currently don't have the information infrastructure to know?

If thats the case then the answer is clearly don't get a battery, because it definitely consumes resources and may or may not help the environment.  

Have I misinterpreted?