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Transparent
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Posted by: @kev-m

the consequences of a catastrophic grid failure are not really anything to do with domestic heating.

I think most properties would struggle to maintain domestic heating in the absence of electricity from the grid !  😲 

I'm not sure that I've properly understood your comment. Are you thinking that this isn't a suitable/relevant discussion for this forum?

My own heating could now continue to operate during an outage because I'm implementing off-grid storage. But we really do need to consider the resilience of future domestic heating systems.

Resilience a live discussion point with my (Borough) Council, who are also the Local Planning Authority. The increasing proportion of standing charges is constraining the sort of houses we'd want to see being built in future. There are a number of enterprising possibilities, particularly in this geographical area which has abundant renewable energy assets. Amongst these are:-

  • Combined Heat & Power plant (CHP) within a multi-fuel energy hub, serving a cluster of 6-20 homes
  • Using excess solar/wind generation to split water, and feed the resulting hydrogen either to the grid or to area-wide CHPs

Hydrogen production has greater short-term financial viability than the cost of upgrading the electricity grid. It avoids paying compensation to renewable-energy producers when they are required to reduce generation, and gas costs very little to transport.

 

Save energy... recycle electrons!


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Kev M
(@kev-m)
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Posted by: @transparent
Posted by: @kev-m

the consequences of a catastrophic grid failure are not really anything to do with domestic heating.

I think most properties would struggle to maintain domestic heating in the absence of electricity from the grid !  😲 

I'm not sure that I've properly understood your comment. Are you thinking that this isn't a suitable/relevant discussion for this forum?

My own heating could now continue to operate during an outage because I'm implementing off-grid storage. But we really do need to consider the resilience of future domestic heating systems.

Resilience a live discussion point with my (Borough) Council, who are also the Local Planning Authority. The increasing proportion of standing charges is constraining the sort of houses we'd want to see being built in future. There are a number of enterprising possibilities, particularly in this geographical area which has abundant renewable energy assets. Amongst these are:-

  • Combined Heat & Power plant (CHP) within a multi-fuel energy hub, serving a cluster of 6-20 homes
  • Using excess solar/wind generation to split water, and feed the resulting hydrogen either to the grid or to area-wide CHPs

Hydrogen production has greater short-term financial viability than the cost of upgrading the electricity grid. It avoids paying compensation to renewable-energy producers when they are required to reduce generation, and gas costs very little to transport.

 

All I was saying is that if the electricity grid failed, domestic heating would be the least of our worries and, as you say, gas CH systems wouldn't work anyway.    

 

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by Kev M

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HughF
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£880 last year for dhw+heating our place - that'll be £2400 now that we're having two price cap increases. Hoping to get the ASHP in before winter comes but it's unlikely...

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Kev M
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Posted by: @hughf

£880 last year for dhw+heating our place - that'll be £2400 now that we're having two price cap increases. Hoping to get the ASHP in before winter comes but it's unlikely...

What sort of heating/DHW is that?


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HughF
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@kev-m mains gas. Non condensing boiler (73% efficient according to the documentation). Rads and a 120ltr cylinder.

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Transparent
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Posted by: @hughf

that'll be £2400 now that we're having two price cap increases. Hoping to get the ASHP in before winter comes but it's unlikely...

Even if you can't get the ASHP installed before winter @hughf why not take that house 'off-grid' too?

You already have the experience to do so. If you used an Octopus Agile tariff, it would at least allow your battery storage to be re-charged at 5p/kWh instead of 30p.

Once the ASHP arrives, your initial investment becomes even more 'profitable'. You can simply add 1 or 2 more off-grid inverters and LiFePO4 cell-banks as required.

Save energy... recycle electrons!


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HughF
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Posted by: @transparent
Posted by: @hughf

that'll be £2400 now that we're having two price cap increases. Hoping to get the ASHP in before winter comes but it's unlikely...

Even if you can't get the ASHP installed before winter @hughf why not take that house 'off-grid' too?

You already have the experience to do so. If you used an Octopus Agile tariff, it would at least allow your battery storage to be re-charged at 5p/kWh instead of 30p.

Once the ASHP arrives, your initial investment becomes even more 'profitable'. You can simply add 1 or 2 more off-grid inverters and LiFePO4 cell-banks as required.

I'm tempted, but at the moment I don't have the spare capital to invest in a DIY battery storage setup at this property. I'm probably going to get the south facing roof covered in solar first of all, as we can self-consume all of that in the summer (EV charging, my Wife working from home, dishwasher during the day, tumble dryer (allergies mean my sister-in-law can't line dry)).

 

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Transparent
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I think most people would identify with 'lack of capital' being a major hindrance.

However, if your solar PV plans for the roof are implemented first, then those panels will be grid-connected and require installation by a MCS approved contractor. That's relatively expensive and limits the export to 3.6kW (unless your DNO agrees otherwise).

Contrariwise, if you install solar-panels to feed an off-grid battery, then there is no power/size limitation and you can do a fair amount of the work yourself. This makes better use of the limited capital.

On a separate, but related, issue, if we're discussing the house in Zummerzet, then I'm assuming your DNO is Western Power Distribution. I'm one of the community members who've been working with them on monitoring sub-stations for the past four years. Moreover, I've been granted access to their network maps.

If you'd like, then send me a PM with your postcode and I'll see what info is available for grid-connections in your immediate area.

I might be able to help you avoid three separate applications to WPD within a year:

  • solar-PV export (G98)
  • battery storage (G99?)
  • heat-pump (LCT)

There's no guarantee that the ENA rules will allow you to implement your intended strategy. It would be annoying if you got to application 2 or 3, and only then received a rejection due to what you'd already installed.

Save energy... recycle electrons!


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MattEngineer
(@mattengineer)
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Topic starter  

Cost of living: Energy bills forecast to hit £3,363 a year https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62094435


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Mike Patrick
(@mike-patrick)
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I'm currently on at 2 yr fixed (Feb 2022 - Feb 2024) tariff at 34p per kWh electricity from EDF. Slightly above the present price cap.

Just took a look at long term fixed price quotes on their website. Now 61p per kWh for a fix from now ending in Feb 2024.

The next price cap fix in October will be the last staw for many  people.

Mike

Grant Aerona HPID10 10kWh ASHP


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MattEngineer
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Topic starter  

@mike-patrick 

That’s really interesting thanks for sharing. Just had a quick look at octopus go which is  my current tariff (12m fix) 40.9p 7.5p low rate and 51.36p standing charge 

I was thinking that electricity would be low-mid 30’s when cap goes up but that’s looking optimistic. 


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HughF
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At work, we're currently on 15p till March '23 - we've just signed on for a 3yr to run till march '26 @ 27p (both ex vat)

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Kev M
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Posted by: @hughf

At work, we're currently on 15p till March '23 - we've just signed on for a 3yr to run till march '26 @ 27p (both ex vat)

Maybe a good indication of the likely price in the coming years.  I'm surprised it's that low.


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HughF
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Found the quotes we were given, pretty sure my Boss said these were inc vat but we get the vat back obvs... This was through a broker, EC Business Energy solutions. I think we went with the 36 months from Engie (French supplier)

Screenshot from 2022 07 11 14 57 37

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Jeff
 Jeff
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 252
 

There is also the CCL which is paid by business but not domestic users

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/climate-change-levy-rates

Also the VAT on business energy is 20% but on domestic energy it is 5%

EV charging away from home is also 20% VAT. 

Business energy can be cheaper due to economies of scale and also how well you negotiate as two companies can end up paying different rates in the same street from the same supplier.

For domestic customers it is unusual to see over 24 month contracts. 

Wholesale prices have been volatile generally in the last few weeks so the business may have been lucky getting a quote at a good time. 

 


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