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Battle of the charging technologies

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Majordennisbloodnok
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As I commented on another thread (posted by @editor), we're looking into V2X; we're certainly interested in getting an electric car and V2X makes sense if it can effectively allow us to increase our solar PV storage capacity at the same time.

However, I'm aware now that CHAdeMo charging is essential to V2X being the only bidirectional charging technology readily available, but that it's losing out significantly to CCS in terms of installed public charging infrastructure. Has anyone any ideas:

  1. if there are any hints that CHAdeMo popularity may rise again or
  2. if there are an other bidirectional charging technologies that might be able to take CHAdeMo's place?

Any thoughts much appreciated.

105 m2 bungalow in South East England
Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5 kW air source heat pump
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1 x 6 kW GroWatt battery and inverter
Raised beds for home-grown veg and chickens for eggs

"Semper in excretia; suus solum profundum variat"


   
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Jeff
 Jeff
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Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade. No other change will be needed to the car according to VW. A compatible charger will be needed. Not sure what is the latest on timing in the UK. 

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/convenient-networked-and-sustainable-new-solutions-for-charging-electric-volkswagen-models-7695


   
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(@derek-m)
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Hi

Here is a little something for all the battery lovers to salivate over. 😎 

 

https://www.energy-storage.news/the-numbers-behind-the-record-breaking-rise-of-the-uk-battery-storage-market/


   
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Mars
 Mars
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I'm horrible with cars, and even worse with EVs. Does Tesla have its own proprietary charging standard and is their tech bidirectional? 

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Jeff
 Jeff
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Posted by: @editor

I'm horrible with cars, and even worse with EVs. Does Tesla have its own proprietary charging standard and is their tech bidirectional? 

They haven't been supportive of v2g, but not to say they won't in the future. So not bidirectional currently. 

They have their own chargers but also cables for some other chargers

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/charging-connectors


   
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Majordennisbloodnok
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Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade. No other change will be needed to the car according to VW. A compatible charger will be needed. Not sure what is the latest on timing in the UK. 

Thanks, @jeff. So does this mean the CCS connection in and of itself is capable of bidirectionality, and that it's only the car and charger that need to be told how to behave? I'm struggling somewhat with understanding the detail of where the CHAdeMo and CCS standards begin and the supporting hardware ends, and therefore what V2X compatibility really entails.

105 m2 bungalow in South East England
Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5 kW air source heat pump
18 x 360W solar panels
1 x 6 kW GroWatt battery and inverter
Raised beds for home-grown veg and chickens for eggs

"Semper in excretia; suus solum profundum variat"


   
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Jeff
 Jeff
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Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok
Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade. No other change will be needed to the car according to VW. A compatible charger will be needed. Not sure what is the latest on timing in the UK. 

Thanks, @jeff. So does this mean the CCS connection in and of itself is capable of bidirectionality, and that it's only the car and charger that need to be told how to behave? I'm struggling somewhat with understanding the detail of where the CHAdeMo and CCS standards begin and the supporting hardware ends, and therefore what V2X compatibility really entails.

A good question. 

I can't say i have read up much on the actual standards. There are standards around bi directional charging. For ccs for example, this might be a useful starter to read. 

https://www.emobility-engineering.com/vehicle-to-grid-charging

ISO 15118 is the CCS V2G standards. 

It is not clear to me if CHAdeMo has a long term future, but i am no expert. 

In the case of VW, they say you will need a special "DC BiDi wallbox" charger. Not clear who will be supplying the wallbox or how much it will be, but i bet it won't be cheap. I would hope the charger isn't tied to only VW but don't know. 

There will be an over the air software upgrade to the actual car (assuming the software hasn't already been upgraded in recently delivered models).

At least buying a VW ID you would know there is an upgrade path to V2G if that is important. Of course it assumes they don't change their minds, the charger isn't prohibitively expensive and their are reasonable electricity tariffs on the market. 

I don't know if there are any trials going on at  the moment with VW, i have only seen the Nissan Leaf trials which have had mixed reviews with V2G. There are some V2H Nissan Leaf trails following on. 

I don't think there are any public V2G or V2H tarrifs or setups in the UK yet, only trials. 

I think @Transparent has a VW ID, i expect he is a lot more knowledgeable.

It is early days, but i would hope the market moves quickly over the next few years. 

This post was modified 2 years ago by Jeff

   
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Majordennisbloodnok
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Thanks, @jeff. A good deal to add to the reading-up I've already done, and that's a good thing.

It's also timely since we are looking seriously at the ID3 or its reclothed Cupra equivalent, so it's great to know that the VW stable is at least thinking of complying with the bigger picture. No guarantees, but better than no commitment at all.

105 m2 bungalow in South East England
Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5 kW air source heat pump
18 x 360W solar panels
1 x 6 kW GroWatt battery and inverter
Raised beds for home-grown veg and chickens for eggs

"Semper in excretia; suus solum profundum variat"


   
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Transparent
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Thanks @Jeff and yes I do have a VW ID3. But earlier you wrote:

Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade.

My ID3 predates that capability. Perhaps I need to trade-up because I like the idea of V2G - if it's implemented correctly.

When I investigated VW's strategy at the end of 2021 it was clear that they were developing their own software system to control distributed storage. Ie theirs is a rival to the generic grid-connected storage control architectures being developed by Kaluza (OVO) and Octopus.

I think that approach is fundamentally flawed. Any house needs to have all its smart grid-connected devices controlled by a single universal control algorithm. Without that you can have electric storage radiators or storage batteries being switched on in response to a signal from a Time-of-Use tariff contract. Yet simultaneously, VW could then tell your ID3/ID4 to 'export to the grid'.

Consequently instead of earning grid-support income via VW's scheme, you're simply moving stored energy between devices which you already own.

Save energy... recycle electrons!


   
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Jeff
 Jeff
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Posted by: @transparent

Thanks @Jeff and yes I do have a VW ID3. But earlier you wrote:

Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade.

My ID3 predates that capability. Perhaps I need to trade-up because I like the idea of V2G - if it's implemented correctly.

When I investigated VW's strategy at the end of 2021 it was clear that they were developing their own software system to control distributed storage. Ie theirs is a rival to the generic grid-connected storage control architectures being developed by Kaluza (OVO) and Octopus.

I think that approach is fundamentally flawed. Any house needs to have all its smart grid-connected devices controlled by a single universal control algorithm. Without that you can have electric storage radiators or storage batteries being switched on in response to a signal from a Time-of-Use tariff contract. Yet simultaneously, VW could then tell your ID3/ID4 to 'export to the grid'.

Consequently instead of earning grid-support income via VW's scheme, you're simply moving stored energy between devices which you already own.

Yep, getting everything to work in harmony is a big challenge i agree. 

As well as ISO 15118 for the bi direction ccs charging, I see VW are going to implement EEBUS

Have you come across EEBUS? How does this fit in with things like Kaluza?


   
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 robl
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We have a V2G wallbox, for our leaf, on a trial with Ovo.  So far as I’m aware, there are just a few small scale trial V2G to date similar to ours, using external AC to DC chargers, which are generally expensive (£5k +), and so a barrier to mass adoption.  Also, the cable carrying DC battery forces extra safety measures to be in place (locked connectors), which gives high static loss.

What would make a huge difference to adoption would be an update to the J1772 (granny cable) spec.  That spec at present allows an external EVSE to turn on and off the car charger, and set the current the car charger may draw.  I expect it could also have a reverse power mode - clearly to work this requires the car charger to be bidirectional.  The EVSE is often called a charger, but it has no power conversion inside, it is actually a control box; using this plug, AC mains connects via a contactor directly to the car.  Unlike a uk mains plug, the J1772 has no exposed pins on plug or socket, so power could be transferred either way.

Tesla are I think considering this - newer cars from them have bidirectional hardware built in, they choose not to use it (yet?). They have a proprietory plug, very similar to J1772.


   
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Transparent
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Thanks for those insights @robl  Before I read the above about your participation in the OVO/Kaluza V2G Trial, I'd just posted an overview of it in response to the related points you made in the topic on Sharing Battery Costs. Have a read of that there if you want.

Save energy... recycle electrons!


   
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