Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade. No other change will be needed to the car according to VW. A compatible charger will be needed. Not sure what is the latest on timing in the UK. 

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/convenient-networked-and-sustainable-new-solutions-for-charging-electric-volkswagen-models-7695

Hi

Here is a little something for all the battery lovers to salivate over. 😎 

https://www.energy-storage.news/the-numbers-behind-the-record-breaking-rise-of-the-uk-battery-storage-market/

I'm horrible with cars, and even worse with EVs. Does Tesla have its own proprietary charging standard and is their tech bidirectional? 

Posted by: @editor

I'm horrible with cars, and even worse with EVs. Does Tesla have its own proprietary charging standard and is their tech bidirectional? 

They haven't been supportive of v2g, but not to say they won't in the future. So not bidirectional currently. 

They have their own chargers but also cables for some other chargers

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/charging-connectors

Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade. No other change will be needed to the car according to VW. A compatible charger will be needed. Not sure what is the latest on timing in the UK. 

Thanks, @jeff. So does this mean the CCS connection in and of itself is capable of bidirectionality, and that it's only the car and charger that need to be told how to behave? I'm struggling somewhat with understanding the detail of where the CHAdeMo and CCS standards begin and the supporting hardware ends, and therefore what V2X compatibility really entails.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade. No other change will be needed to the car according to VW. A compatible charger will be needed. Not sure what is the latest on timing in the UK. 

Thanks, @jeff. So does this mean the CCS connection in and of itself is capable of bidirectionality, and that it's only the car and charger that need to be told how to behave? I'm struggling somewhat with understanding the detail of where the CHAdeMo and CCS standards begin and the supporting hardware ends, and therefore what V2X compatibility really entails.

A good question. 

I can't say i have read up much on the actual standards. There are standards around bi directional charging. For ccs for example, this might be a useful starter to read. 

https://www.emobility-engineering.com/vehicle-to-grid-charging

ISO 15118 is the CCS V2G standards. 

It is not clear to me if CHAdeMo has a long term future, but i am no expert. 

In the case of VW, they say you will need a special "DC BiDi wallbox" charger. Not clear who will be supplying the wallbox or how much it will be, but i bet it won't be cheap. I would hope the charger isn't tied to only VW but don't know. 

There will be an over the air software upgrade to the actual car (assuming the software hasn't already been upgraded in recently delivered models).

At least buying a VW ID you would know there is an upgrade path to V2G if that is important. Of course it assumes they don't change their minds, the charger isn't prohibitively expensive and their are reasonable electricity tariffs on the market. 

I don't know if there are any trials going on at  the moment with VW, i have only seen the Nissan Leaf trials which have had mixed reviews with V2G. There are some V2H Nissan Leaf trails following on. 

I don't think there are any public V2G or V2H tarrifs or setups in the UK yet, only trials. 

I think @Transparent has a VW ID, i expect he is a lot more knowledgeable.

It is early days, but i would hope the market moves quickly over the next few years. 

Thanks, @jeff. A good deal to add to the reading-up I've already done, and that's a good thing.

It's also timely since we are looking seriously at the ID3 or its reclothed Cupra equivalent, so it's great to know that the VW stable is at least thinking of complying with the bigger picture. No guarantees, but better than no commitment at all.

Thanks @Jeff and yes I do have a VW ID3. But earlier you wrote:

Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade.

My ID3 predates that capability. Perhaps I need to trade-up because I like the idea of V2G - if it's implemented correctly.

When I investigated VW's strategy at the end of 2021 it was clear that they were developing their own software system to control distributed storage. Ie theirs is a rival to the generic grid-connected storage control architectures being developed by Kaluza (OVO) and Octopus.

I think that approach is fundamentally flawed. Any house needs to have all its smart grid-connected devices controlled by a single universal control algorithm. Without that you can have electric storage radiators or storage batteries being switched on in response to a signal from a Time-of-Use tariff contract. Yet simultaneously, VW could then tell your ID3/ID4 to 'export to the grid'.

Consequently instead of earning grid-support income via VW's scheme, you're simply moving stored energy between devices which you already own.

Posted by: @transparent

Thanks @Jeff and yes I do have a VW ID3. But earlier you wrote:

Posted by: @jeff

Any of the VW ID range of 77kw or above is compatible after a software upgrade.

My ID3 predates that capability. Perhaps I need to trade-up because I like the idea of V2G - if it's implemented correctly.

When I investigated VW's strategy at the end of 2021 it was clear that they were developing their own software system to control distributed storage. Ie theirs is a rival to the generic grid-connected storage control architectures being developed by Kaluza (OVO) and Octopus.

I think that approach is fundamentally flawed. Any house needs to have all its smart grid-connected devices controlled by a single universal control algorithm. Without that you can have electric storage radiators or storage batteries being switched on in response to a signal from a Time-of-Use tariff contract. Yet simultaneously, VW could then tell your ID3/ID4 to 'export to the grid'.

Consequently instead of earning grid-support income via VW's scheme, you're simply moving stored energy between devices which you already own.

Yep, getting everything to work in harmony is a big challenge i agree. 

As well as ISO 15118 for the bi direction ccs charging, I see VW are going to implement EEBUS

Have you come across EEBUS? How does this fit in with things like Kaluza?

We have a V2G wallbox, for our leaf, on a trial with Ovo.  So far as I’m aware, there are just a few small scale trial V2G to date similar to ours, using external AC to DC chargers, which are generally expensive (£5k +), and so a barrier to mass adoption.  Also, the cable carrying DC battery forces extra safety measures to be in place (locked connectors), which gives high static loss.

What would make a huge difference to adoption would be an update to the J1772 (granny cable) spec.  That spec at present allows an external EVSE to turn on and off the car charger, and set the current the car charger may draw.  I expect it could also have a reverse power mode - clearly to work this requires the car charger to be bidirectional.  The EVSE is often called a charger, but it has no power conversion inside, it is actually a control box; using this plug, AC mains connects via a contactor directly to the car.  Unlike a uk mains plug, the J1772 has no exposed pins on plug or socket, so power could be transferred either way.

Tesla are I think considering this - newer cars from them have bidirectional hardware built in, they choose not to use it (yet?). They have a proprietory plug, very similar to J1772.

Thanks for those insights @robl  Before I read the above about your participation in the OVO/Kaluza V2G Trial, I'd just posted an overview of it in response to the related points you made in the topic on Sharing Battery Costs. Have a read of that there if you want.

Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok

Thanks, @jeff. A good deal to add to the reading-up I've already done, and that's a good thing.

It's also timely since we are looking seriously at the ID3 or its reclothed Cupra equivalent, so it's great to know that the VW stable is at least thinking of complying with the bigger picture. No guarantees, but better than no commitment at all.

The other vehicles to keep an eye on are those with V2L (vehicle to load) which have a separate socket to run domestic appliances or an optional cable to plug into the external charging socket, useful for camping for us. Such as the Ioniq 5 and other cars build on the same underlying EV platform. These are due to get V2G at some stage if articles are to be believed. Again i would suggest going for the larger battery versions and checking to see if dealers have heard anything to check the validity of this, particularly if buying second hand. May well find this functionality cannot be upgraded in some or all the currently shipped cars. 

The Netherlands are doing quite a bit with V2G trails with different cars including the Ioniq 5, Renault Zoe etc. Worth checking out to at least get some insight into manufacturers who at least seem to be closer to launching something mainstream. They also talk about using the ISO 15118 CCS V2G evolving standards. Useful starting point, you will find more when searching. 

https://www.wedrivesolar.nl/

Of course all this is dependent in the UK on what happens with tariffs, DNO approvals and potentially upgrades, the likes of Kaluza etc. and what cars actually make it to the UK. 

Very interesting, @jeff.

The other thing I’m keeping an eye on is where the market goes with automotive batteries, which will markedly influence V2X overall. Without claiming any certainty, I’m cautiously predicting that the future will involve wireless charging on most of our road network, and vehicles eventually being designed with only around 100 mile range to travel on less accessible roads. If that’s the case - and it would be quite some time before we got there even if I am right - V2X would be less viable. If I’m wrong and manufacturers just ramp the range up and up, V2X becomes almost inevitable. Here be dragons, eh?

My wife and I have a plan for how we might dip our toes into the whole EV thing, and it involves being able to give it back after a few years in the expectation technology will have moved on and that what fits our needs hasn’t been developed yet. That’s the main reason I’m not too worried about changing standards and experimentation as long as it doesn’t involve huge up-front investment. All the info you’ve provided is helping a lot with that, so many thanks.

Wireless charging from the road is an adventurous prediction @majordennisbloodnok and most certainly worthy of a Goon Show script.

Static inductive charging achieves a maximum 92% efficiency, which is itself dependent on accurate alignment of the coils.

Dynamic inductive charging from the road surface (whilst on the move) cannot utilise such precise alignment and will incur heavy losses. Trials have been undertaken using hidden conductive 'rails' within the road. But since power transfer falls off with the square of the distance from the rails to the coil on the EV, their proximity to the surface compromises the structural integrity of the surface.

If you're seeking insight into future electric transport, then I'm pretty sure that autonomous EVs would have to be developed first. Unlike human drivers, they can be relied on to stay in lanes.