Lay person looking from the outside in
Hi
I am a qualified plumber & electrician and happily own a house with a combi boiler on the gas grid.
But there is talk of in the next seven years converting the grid to hydrogen and anyway i would like to understand the process.
I understand how airsource works but i am told that pumps need larger bore pipes.
Anyone point me to info on this
Thanks
@sparkymark, hello and welcome to the forum. Are you asking if an ASHP system needs larger bore pipes for its heating/HW circuits than a gas system? If so the answer is in theory maybe but in practice not really. Our new ASHP system has standard 15mm pipework to the radiators and some 22mm around the ASHP and the tank and for the main HW feeds. That's the same as I remember our gas systems. From what I have read that's the same for others. Some sources advise against microbore but then again some have used it.
You might need an extra pump or two to circulate the extra water because the radiators will be typically bigger, especially if you have a big/complicated house. It's more important to get the design of the system right with an ASHP. Gas/oil will be a lot more forgiving of a poorly designed set up.
Hi Sparkymark,
Welcome to the forum.
As Kev stated, in most instances the existing pipework is adequate for use with an ASHP. The pipework is merely the means of transporting the heat energy from the heat source (Boiler, ASHP etc.) to the heat emitters (Radiators or UFH), and provided there is sufficient flowrate at the lower temperature preferred for ASHP's, then there should not be a problem.
In situations where there may be a problem, it could be possible to resolve the issue by installing a larger pump rather than replacing the pipework.
Welcome to the forums @sparkymark – what Kev and Derek said is spot on. From our experience, the bulk of our property has 15mm pipework – for some reason, when the previous owners ran the central heating (old oil boiler) to the northern end of the house, they reduced the pipework to 10mm. The issue we ran into when we switched over to an air source heat pump was that there was insufficient hot water getting through to that part of the house. The 15mm circuit was great. This was remedied by increasing the size of the distribution pump and increasing the size of the rads. This work was carried out in April, so we'll only really find out whether it's 100% worked when this winter rolls around.
Pre-order: The Ultimate Guide to Heat Pumps
Subscribe and follow our Homeowners’ Q&A heat pump podcast
Hi SparkyMark - when "they" talk about converting the gas grid to H2, this will only be at 20%, so you will still be burning 80% methane. So it helps a bit - like a hybrid car. But the answer has to be to stop burning stuff, so electric all the way. Above 20% and there is not enough energy (specific heat capacity) in the H2#, compared to CH4. So you have pump it faster, that leads to all sorts of losses.
Don't even get me started on H2 for cars 🤔 Up to 70% losses compared to using electric in BEVs
I will get off my soap box now
Daikin Altherma 3H HT 12kWh ASHP with Mixergy h/w cylinder; 4kW solar PV with Solic 200 electric diverter; Honda e and new Hyundai Ioniq 5 N electric vehicles with Myenergi Zappi mk1 charger
@julianc H2 is much more convenient for the consumer. Stores far more energy per litre, quick to refuel and retains the existing infrastructure of petrol stations. I would personally be surprised if H2 didn't make some kind of inroads given the intrinsic issues of battery's for range and heavy loads - you simply cannot run heavy equipment on batteries for extended periods.
Current (best) battery energy density 900wh/litre
Diesel energy density: 9,700 wh/litre
Diesel is nearly 11x more energy dense and takes seconds to replace the capacity compared to hours for batteries. This is why it is hard to transition away from fossil fuels. H2 makes a good case in that sense.
I totally agree fir large loads. Maybe lorries. And energy intense industry like steel
But for cars, I still think BEVs are the answer. Charge them overnight (where possible). New cars coming out like Tesla and Hyundai Ioniq 5 go to 80% charge in 18 minutes. And with 280 miles of range.
Vehicle to Grid will allow balance of the electric demand.
And there are huge losses in H2 production compared to using electric directly. Plus H2 is much more expensive. I think BEVs will win the economic argument.
We do need more ultra fast chargers.
Daikin Altherma 3H HT 12kWh ASHP with Mixergy h/w cylinder; 4kW solar PV with Solic 200 electric diverter; Honda e and new Hyundai Ioniq 5 N electric vehicles with Myenergi Zappi mk1 charger
@batalto, good, valid points, but the reality is the world is taking strain with all the CO2 that's being released. At some stage (if it's not already too late) we have to stop burning fuels or our living environment is going to become horribly unstable and difficult to live in.
Pre-order: The Ultimate Guide to Heat Pumps
Subscribe and follow our Homeowners’ Q&A heat pump podcast
Hi Mark, if you already have a plumbing background I can recommend the training videos from Freedom Heatpumps:
https://www.youtube.com/c/SamsungEHSHeatpumps/playlists
Most of what they describe are Monobloc heatpumps, which means there's a single outdoor unit with electricity goes in and water flow/return water pipes come out - much the same as an oil boiler. If you look at some of the system diagrams you can see they're not a million miles away from that. The main thing is that the output water temperature is lower, which means heat emitters need to be larger - larger radiators, larger coils in the cylinder - and also the HP can be a bit fussier about flow/return rate (Freedom put in a plate heat exchanger so the HP only has a short pipe run to the HX, rather than running through all the rads directly. Other installers don't do that). The lower you can keep the output flow temperature, the more efficient the HP is. Also they don't work as efficiently in really cold weather (sub zero for long continuous periods, which is relatively unusual in the UK).
Because of the lower temperature you need to do a proper heat loss calculation, rather than just guessing as many gas installers do. Larger ASHP are a lot more expensive, and cycling them drops the efficiency, so it's important they're sized right. Freedom have a service to do that for you, or there's the MCS spreadsheet which isn't too hard to use. You just need to measure floor area, wall heights, windows and radiators, and then say what everything is made of (cavity wall or solid, how much loft insulation, etc).
Basically gas boilers give more margin for error, whereas heat pumps are a bit fussier and need a little more attention to detail to get things right. But at the end of the day they aren't massively more complicated than today's gas boiler systems and smart controls.
(this is not an ad for Freedom, BTW, I just found their material very handy in demystifying how things work)
- 26 Forums
- 2,122 Topics
- 46.6 K Posts
- 74 Online
- 4,529 Members
Join Us!
Podcast Picks
Latest Posts
-
There are some projects looking at how smart meters and...
By Jeff , 5 hours ago
-
RE: Share Your Experiences with Heat Pump Manufacturer Support
@terry1812 Yes, I use Homely, as to whether Daikin is u...
By Toodles , 17 hours ago
-
RE: ASHP heat output monitoring
@carlo - welcome to the forum. I don't know about LG...
By cathodeRay , 22 hours ago
-
RE: Why do we need pressurised systems?
@old_scientist If that were the case (and it might well...
By Toodles , 1 day ago
-
RE: 300 Liter Tank - Do I have to heat it all?
There’s no second hand market for DHW tanks (I was told...
By Judith , 1 day ago
-
RE: Solar Power Output – Let’s Compare Generation Figures
We had an excellent four months (11/3 to 15/7) generati...
By JulianC , 2 days ago
-
RE: Is this just haze or something more?
I think the present somewhat cooler hazy days show the ...
By Judith , 2 days ago
-
RE: My misgivings about installing ASHP and solar panels via the ECO4 scheme...
All noted and accepted and as I say I am sorry that you...
By JamesPa , 2 days ago
-
I think it is very much me that is sitting outside the ...
By Grantmethestrength , 2 days ago
-
RE: Replacing Refrigerant on Mitsubishi Heat Pump
@davidalgarve It should just be recovered by both servi...
By dgclimatecontrol , 3 days ago
-
RE: Who's your electricity provider and what's your tariff?
Aggregators have been recognised for many years, and it...
By Transparent , 3 days ago
-
RE: Help me keep the faith with my air source heat pump installation
Great news I edited my previous post (probably af...
By JamesPa , 3 days ago
-
RE: Double or Triple Glazed Windows?
@toodles Glad to hear things are progressing well for y...
By TRBob , 3 days ago
-
How to waste energy (and time) playing with AI.
A friend of mine who subscribes to an AI service was ex...
By Toodles , 4 days ago
-
RE: Heat Pump Books For Beginners – Bodge Buster & From Zero To Heat Pump Hero
@topher you’re more than welcome to, yes. I’ll send you...
By Mars , 5 days ago
-
RE: Fitting new shower valve ..........
I’ve never taken a chance when fiddling and changing ou...
By Mars , 5 days ago
-
You should contact the council and report the unsatisfa...
By JamesPa , 5 days ago
-
RE: Benefits of an extra horizontal loop for GSHP
I would deffo install an additional slinky run, especia...
By Transparent , 5 days ago