@grahamh I tried this last Autumn/Winter with my HP and the bills were shockingly high. Could be related to bad set up/leaks at that time but as I keep banging on about, a high temp pump will result in higher running costs compared to a standard one, yes or no?

And @Mars No. I am really concerned about how I and my family will manage this Winter. The standing charge increase in so unjust in itself, regardless of anything else.

@saz if its set up right it is the most effective way to run, if its set up badly it costs a fortune. i would get somoene in locally who knows what they are doing . it really works well if its done right .

@grahamh Every engineer that has been here has their own ideas about set up, and the manufacturer's own engineers can't agree among themselves either, it's an utterly ridiculous situation. It does seem better with weather comp, but I have had to almost force that change. The manufacturer advertises that an immersion is not needed with the Arotherm plus due to it's high temp capabilities yet mine is wired in to do the legionella cycle (and incidentally in such a way that it couldn't be used for back up if the heat pump fails). I respect you very much Graham but I think you know what I'm getting at regarding the unfairness for me of having been landed with a high temp pump for my property. I can directly compare the running costs and consumption with my old heat pump, they are higher (and yes I have factored in the price rise). I still cannot get answers regarding my metering and the strange goings on with it and as for the dreadful heatloss calculation, it was carried out by someone with an allegedly good reputation (who must have used umpteen 'rules of thumb' and spent all of 5 mins on it; it has more holes than my leaky pipework). End-users like me are just 'thrown under the bus' because of vested interests everywhere and given the silent treatment. It is truly scandalous that noone in the industry cares, even the bodies that are set up to certify installs. What is the point of setting standards if they refuse to enforce them. I am sick of hearing that people will save money on their bills when it won't be true for many people. Or only if you have additions, bells and whistles and solar panels etc.

I wonder if a better/easier to configure/simpler technology would be the way forwards to resolving issues of low cop and high running costs? Perhaps air to air? I remember Graham saying that the Koreans looked at him as if he had two heads when he said that he wanted to heat the water, pump it round rads that then heat the air. ‘Why don’t you just heat the air’ they said.

It’s unfortunate @Saz that you’ve had to take the reigns on your install and force them to configure weather comp. It isn’t the first time I’ve heard of installers disabling WC and setting a fixed flow temp. It’s laziness, that’s what it is.

And as for the ‘manufacturer’s engineers’ badge - I’m an engineer, I design stuff and build it, from scratch. Call me a narcissistic snob, but a plumber/ashp installer is not an engineer. He’s a plumber, and a bad one at that (by the sounds of it).

You need a control systems technician to get this right. After all, it’s a control systems problem.

Shouldn’t the title of this thread really be ‘can you afford to keep the heating on this winter’. After all, gas has doubled in unit cost. Yes, electricity has gone up, but not by the same amount. The economics of heating with ashp only made sense before if you could get cheap electricity. And the vast majority of people weren’t on some crazy cheap deal, they were on the standard rate. 

It actually makes more sense now, because for the shoulder months you’ll beat the price difference between gas and electricity of 3.6x (28/7.9). Only in the depths of winter would gas be cheaper.

Heating costs money, heck it costs me £240/month to pay for help to cut and split wood for our Rayburn. And then there’s the coal on top to keep it in over night. (We do not have a grid connection, so ashp is not possible at this property)

Hi @hughf  My running costs were lower with my previous pump so is it a control systems issue?? My house did not require a high temp pump to be fitted, and although they can be fitted it doesn't mean they *should be* in all properties...

Every single person that has been here to look at the control will alter the parameters and noone agrees on the best set up.

'only in the depths of winter would gas be cheaper' - Yes, when you need/use the heating the most and consumption for heating is higher. But I am comparing standard versus high temp pump. I am probably paying more to run my ASHP than any of my neighbours, unnecessarily and all attempts to solve why fall on deaf ears because noone cares as it's not their bill.

Why did you not replace like for like? If you didn't need a high temp pump, why have one installed?

They will always cost more to run than a low temp unit, that's physics for you. Low temps are always your friend, hence why A2A can delivery such a good COP.

This whole 'we can re-use your rads' idea is flawed in my opinion. You should always redesign for a flow temp of 45deg (max) and size rads accordingly. It's just lazy to say 'well, we can reuse your rads and just fit a high temp heat pump'....

As a heating installer the current chaos was all predictable 15yrs ago when condensing boilers became mandatory in the U.K. Almost all boilers then and now are designed around the use of the out door sensor in Germany because there it has been mandatory on all heat generating appliances since 1985.

The problem is the U.K. generally, and heating engineers in particular,  don’t like to change their understanding, so lots of tests have been done to disprove the effectiveness of weather compensation to save energy.

And there we are stuck. 

People in the U.k. think it’s a choice, as a technician who installs gas boilers I don’t think weather comp is an option. it’s a required input to make the boilers work optimally. (i have boilers 15 yrs old on my books, the average age is 8yrs in the U.k., the design life 20-25yrs)

I’m  62 now and getting bored if the whole subject, people won’t listen in the corridors of power to a little old man like me! My customers on the other hand love me.. comfortable houses and they pay me annually for the service..to keep good things going. Compensated machines work brilliant, efficiently and reliably.

The question isn’t does weather comp work, it’s how do you install a weather comped heat generator to be effective. That’s not the question being asked at all..and that’s the issue.

The koreans might like blasts of warm air, but it’s supremely uncomfortable to live with, i was in California last week using a ashp in my hotel, noisy, dry air and windy!

Posted by: @alec-morrow

As a heating installer the current chaos was all predictable 15yrs ago when condensing boilers became mandatory in the U.K. Almost all boilers then and now are designed around the use of the out door sensor in Germany because there it has been mandatory on all heat generating appliances since 1985.

 

The problem is the U.K. generally, and heating engineers in particular,  don’t like to change their understanding, so lots of tests have been done to disprove the effectiveness of weather compensation to save energy.

And there we are stuck. 

People in the U.k. think it’s a choice, as a technician who installs gas boilers I don’t think weather comp is an option. it’s a required input to make the boilers work optimally. (i have boilers 15 yrs old on my books, the average age is 8yrs in the U.k., the design life 20-25yrs)

I’m  62 now and getting bored if the whole subject, people won’t listen in the corridors of power to a little old man like me! My customers on the other hand love me.. comfortable houses and they pay me annually for the service..to keep good things going. Compensated machines work brilliant, efficiently and reliably.

 

The question isn’t does weather comp work, it’s how do you install a weather comped heat generator to be effective. That’s not the question being asked at all..and that’s the issue.

 

The koreans might like blasts of warm air, but it’s supremely uncomfortable to live with, i was in California last week using a ashp in my hotel, noisy, dry air and windy!

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you think that the UK heating industry is so backwards? Is it lack of the correct regulations, or something else? I don't work in the industry but I know a few plumbers and I'm genuinely interested to know why we've got this so wrong.

the because the people who advise the government work for component manufacturers outside the U.K. so the interest is sales only, not responsible engineering.

I did attend a meeting in Whitehall about 8 yrs ago, the young civil servant confided they would much rather have the model in Germany, but were powerless to make the manufacturers adopt the technology that way. 

Keeping installers dumbed down, and at arms length, is a great way to ensure product failure and high volume of sales..and from the manufacturers point of view blaming an installer for product  is a valid business model

The only hope is installers organising themselves which they won’t do, or consumer organisations being more demanding, but consumer organisations don’t really understand the technology either

This time last year our heat pump was running away with electricity. The setup was wrong and it was trying to heat the house and the hot water at the same time (it's a Grant Aerona which specifically must be set to switch between the two - you can't heat both at the same time). That was fixed (space heating now set to go off 3 times a day when hot water heating goes on). and (with Derek's help) I have ascertained that it is running on weather compensation.

The house (all electric) is about 150m2 and there are two of us living in it - it's also fully insulated and has underfloor heating throughout. In May 2021 our 12 month rolling total electricity use was 15,200kWh. Now in May 2022 it is 10,700kWh. We leave the sytem on all year round (including in the summer) and don't touch any setttings. I still think this figure is high as I believe the original installation (by an MCS registered  installer) was sub-optimal. But I have to live with that. We are now paying £270 per month. Hard to believe it was as little as £110 only a couple of years ago. There is no gas in our area so it was never an option. But for those that do have it I'm sure that for many it is still cheaper than a heat pump.

In February when the current price cap figure was announced I  switched from the standard variable rate to a 2 year fixed deal at slightly above the cap. So I'm not facing a further rise later this year.  That is going to be the last straw for many people.

Mike