What is the best st...
 
Notifications
Clear all

What is the best strategy for operating a very oversized heat pump?

22 Posts
10 Users
2 Reactions
373 Views
(@jamespa)
Famed Member Moderator
11361 kWhs
Veteran
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 2149
Topic starter  

As the title really.  There are at least three live threads currently where its obvious that a part of the problem is a heat pump oversized by a factor of 2 or more, and I would guess that a fairly significant proportion of the threads have this somewhere at their centre.  As we get into the shoulder season, the 'problem' will rear its head more frequently.

So whats the best strategy and why?  Im assuming that the heat pump is operated on weather compensation obviously

1. Operate on WC and leave it open loop (no external controls).  Trust the heat pump controller do its job

2. Operate on WC and batch heat by timed operation, accepting the variation in IAT.  Adjust the number of on/off cycles according to the thermal time constant of the house

3. Operate on WC and modulate on and off using a thermostat

4. Something else

All are in fact cycling, so all will suffer the thermodynamic/COP penalty of cycling, perhaps to a greater or lesser extent depending on the resulting flow temperatures.

What's the best strategy and why?  Any answers?

 

This topic was modified 2 weeks ago by Mars

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
Quote
(@tim441)
Honorable Member Contributor
2284 kWhs
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 271
 

Something else... that works for some people...

LG has "Quiet/silent mode" that is normally intended where noise is an issue (say at night or proximity to neighbours etc). When using that mode the compressors operate at lower rate than normally called by WC. 

Some people use very effectively for oversized heat pumps to reduce cycling etc. It means operating at less than optimal efficiency for size of pump but if oversized that may suit.

I guess many other heat pumps have a similar option. Maybe called something else.

Listed Grade 2 building with large modern extension.
LG Therma V 16kw ASHP
Underfloor heating + Rads
8kw pv solar
3 x 8.2kw GivEnergy batteries
1 x GivEnergy Gen1 hybrid 5.0kw inverter
Manual changeover EPS
MG4 EV


   
ReplyQuote
(@jamespa)
Famed Member Moderator
11361 kWhs
Veteran
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 2149
Topic starter  

I think most heat pumps have this mode but I cant see how it can reduce cycling, unless there is something weird in the control logic (which is possible of course)

For NR mode to reduce cycling it would have to reduce the output of the heat pump.  But if it can reduce the output of the heat pump, why doesn't the controller do this when it needs to.

Something funny here, it would be good to see some plots/data to unravel this

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by Mars

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
ReplyQuote
(@irmartini)
Estimable Member Member
1328 kWhs
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 69
 

@jamespa 

Samsung has it 'Quiet mode' and I use it a lot and it helps reduce cycling, It essentially limits the output power on mine to just under 1kw.

I think of it like this when the heatpump starts up it starts hard and aims to get flow temp up to target quickly and as it gets near it starts to throttle its output, but when the weather is mild or the house is already warm it often then can't throttle down quick enough before reaching temp and cycling.

Quiet mode with its power limit stops the hard out the gate approach and gives the unit more time to throttle down till the output is sustainable or if it isn't it cycles again but runs for a longer time before cycling.

Does that make sense?

 

EDIT

I've just looked back at my monitoring to before I started using quiet mode and can't really find any good evidence to backup my above statement but I'm still sure it does help maybe not as much as I initially thought.  

 

 

As to your options I'm in option 2 (But ideally I would like a combination of 2 and 3)

If I have the weather curve set to maintain IAT then my unit cycles when its above 6-8deg so I have the temps higher and so the IAT increases and then I have off periods to control the temp. I also don't want to run 24/7 as there is no need to maintain IAT when no one is in for large periods of time or over night and so windows makes it cheaper.

Currently I'm running from 4am to 8am then 12pm till 4pm (DHW runs in this window as well) then back on 5pm to 9pm and with the recent warm weather it been getting a bit warm for me but as we return to more average March temps this schedule works well.

Ideally if I could I would like thermostatic control within these windows as well, but the thermostat I use to control the on off periods does have programable hysteresis

I would probably set off @ 21.0 on @ 18.5 this would deal with solar gain as well as short weather fluctuations rather than me knocking an hour or two off or on to cope, if anyone knows of a thermostat with programable hysteresis like this I'm all ears.

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by IRMartini

“Anything worth doing, is worth doing right.”


   
ReplyQuote
(@jamespa)
Famed Member Moderator
11361 kWhs
Veteran
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 2149
Topic starter  

Posted by: @irmartini

Samsung has it 'Quiet mode' and I use it a lot and it helps reduce cycling, It essentially limits the output power on mine to just under 1kw.

I think of it like this when the heatpump starts up it starts hard and aims to get flow temp up to target quickly and as it gets near it starts to throttle its output, but when the weather is mild or the house is already warm it often then can't throttle down quick enough before reaching temp and cycling.

Quiet mode with its power limit stops the hard out the gate approach and gives the unit more time to throttle down till the output is sustainable or if it isn't it cycles again but runs for a longer time before cycling.

Does that make sense?

It makes sense, although shows a complete lack of thought on the part of the designers (which is disappointing) about the things that they could do, without changing the hardware, to reduce the minimum possible output (which we know is a key question - but sadly not one of the specs mandated by the various regulations which maybe why they dont care!)

As a matter of interest do you know if Samsung does an integral calculation of 'target FT - actual FT'*time and uses it at all.  Vaillant does (it calculates degree minutes and you can display the value which it calls 'energy integral') but I have yet to find out if it uses it to control cycling so that the average output is what would be expected from the target flow temperature.

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by JamesPa

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
ReplyQuote
(@irmartini)
Estimable Member Member
1328 kWhs
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 69
 

@jamespa 

I'm afraid that's over my head but if anyone will know that it will be:

SarahH HERE

 

Also note my edit that I can't really find any good evidence for my statement although I'm convinced it helps.

“Anything worth doing, is worth doing right.”


   
ReplyQuote



(@old_scientist)
Reputable Member Member
909 kWhs
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 131
 

In milder weather, I know my radiators can only dissipate the heat being produced at a flow temp of 32-33C, so I set the WC to around this temperature and just allow the room stat to call for heat ON/OFF as required. It may run for an hour and then off for a few hours. We then try to manually manage the call for heat further, to coincide with cheap rate slots on our ToU tariff (Cosy)

We achieve good COP's (fours and fives) in the milder weather, so no complaints.

I don't use Quiet Mode as @irmartini describes (I find it does weird things when used for space heating), but I will turn the WC (WL) flow temperature right down when bringing the system up from a cold start and then gradually increase it, to minimise the power draw in the first 30-60mins and keep it running as much as possible within our current solar generation. At present, in the current milder weather, we are turning off all night, and turning the heating back on at 9-10am when we get up. The house soon gets back up to a reasonable temp at 32-33C flow temps as it's putting out way more heat than the current heat loss.

I prefer this method over (1) as I'm in control of what the heat pump does, and when (the heat pump has no understanding of my ToU tariff or our current solar production). I have no idea if (1) would result in a superior COP, but any variations are likely swamped by the financial benefits of the ToU. Similarly, I know the heat pump will be more efficient in an hour because the weather will be warmer in an hour, so if I can hold off turning the heating on, when I do turn it on I'll be running at a warmer OAT. If I leave the heat pump to just get on with it (method 1), it may be cycling off just at the time when it's cheapest and/or most efficient, or cycling on just when it's most expensive.


   
ReplyQuote
(@old_scientist)
Reputable Member Member
909 kWhs
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 131
 

Posted by: @jamespa

[As a matter of interest do you know if Samsung does an integral calculation of 'target FT - actual FT'*time and uses it at all.  Vaillant does (it calculates degree minutes and you can display the value which it calls 'energy integral') but I have yet to find out if it uses it to control cycling so that the average output is what would be expected from the target flow temperature.

I don't know how the Samsung does it, but what I can tell you is the power draw reduces as the flow temps approach the desired set point. It seems to be related as much to the return flow temperature (or narrowing dT) as the flow temp. I don't have charts, but from observations on a cold start, I see a power draw of maybe 2.5-2.8kW which gradually reduces (modulates) down to around 1kW as the flow temp reaches the set point and the dT with return temp narrows to 5C or below. The gradual backing off is effective at preventing any overshoot.

 

 


   
ReplyQuote
(@jamespa)
Famed Member Moderator
11361 kWhs
Veteran
Joined: 2 years ago
Posts: 2149
Topic starter  

Posted by: @old_scientist

I have no idea if (1) would result in a superior COP, but any variations are likely swamped by the financial benefits of the ToU.

I have to agree that in many cases ToU tarrifs will dominate.  I guess I should've framed the question as 'in the absence of ToU tarrifs!

 

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.


   
ReplyQuote
(@old_scientist)
Reputable Member Member
909 kWhs
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 131
 

Posted by: @jamespa

Posted by: @old_scientist

I have no idea if (1) would result in a superior COP, but any variations are likely swamped by the financial benefits of the ToU.

I have to agree that in many cases ToU tarrifs will dominate.  I guess I should've framed the question as 'in the absence of ToU tarrifs!

I think you are right to frame the question as you did, as ToU tariffs are very relevant to any heat pump strategy (at least for those who are on them).

Obviously if someone is on a fixed rate tariff (such as the OVO 15p fixed rate heat pump tariff), then that may change things for them.

This post was modified 2 weeks ago by Old_Scientist
This post was modified 2 weeks ago by Mars

   
ReplyQuote
Mars
 Mars
(@editor)
Illustrious Member Admin
26763 kWhs
Veteran
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 3030
 

This whole discussion highlights just how much of a mess oversized heat pumps can create (but I’d still take an oversized unit over an undersized one).

Focusing on the subject at hand, the problem isn’t just the cycling itself. It’s that the entire control strategy is broken when a heat pump is too large for the house. Modern heat pumps are designed to run continuously at the lowest possible flow temperature, and the moment they start cycling aggressively, you’re losing efficiency, increasing wear on the compressor and making the system more expensive to run. The fact that so many people have to experiment with batch heating, thermostat tweaks and quiet modes just to get their system working properly is a clear sign that something has gone wrong at the design stage.

One of the big takeaways from installer training materials is that the industry still hasn’t shaken the habit of oversizing heating systems. Boilers could get away with it because they had raw power and quick recovery times, but heat pumps don’t work like that. They need to be sized correctly from the start, otherwise you get exactly what we’re seeing here: cycling in mild weather, inefficient operation and homeowners scrambling for ways to stop their system from constantly switching on and off.

What’s also interesting is that some of the traditional “fixes” for cycling, like buffer tanks, make things worse. If they aren’t designed properly, they introduce temperature distortions that actually increase running costs rather than stabilising the system. The only real fix for an oversized heat pump would be to swap it for a properly sized unit, but since that’s not an option for most people, the next best thing is damage control in the form of trying to stretch out run times as much as possible while keeping cycling to a minimum.

Weather compensation alone won’t save an oversized system if the minimum modulation is still too high. Batch heating can help if the house has enough thermal mass, but it can also lead to uncomfortable temperature swings. Thermostatic control with a wide hysteresis could reduce overall cycles, but it’s still just managing the symptoms rather than fixing the root cause. Some people are using quiet modes or power-limiting features as a workaround, which is proof that manufacturers could offer better modulation at the lower end if they really wanted to, yet they don’t, likely because industry regulations don’t force them to.

So what’s the best strategy? There isn’t a perfect one as far I know. It’s about finding the least bad option based on the specific system. If I were dealing with this, I’d experiment with batch heating but with carefully controlled flow temperatures to avoid massive swings, and I’d look into whether the heat pump has any settings that can artificially cap output without tanking efficiency.

But really, this whole conversation shouldn’t even be happening. The fact that so many people are having to come up with workarounds to make their oversized heat pumps behave just proves that installers are still getting the basics wrong.

Buy Bodge Buster – Homeowner Air Source Heat Pump Installation Guide: https://amzn.to/3NVndlU
From Zero to Heat Pump Hero: https://amzn.to/4bWkPFb

Subscribe and follow our Homeowners’ Q&A heat pump podcast


   
👍
1
ReplyQuote
(@arundalep)
Eminent Member Member
167 kWhs
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 15
 

You could use Home Assistant with a cheap wifi or Zigbee switch and essentially make whatever rules or conditions for the target temperature you want (This is how I control an oversized Samsung).

 

Posted by: @irmartini

Ideally if I could I would like thermostatic control within these windows as well, but the thermostat I use to control the on off periods does have programable hysteresis

I would probably set off @ 21.0 on @ 18.5 this would deal with solar gain as well as short weather fluctuations rather than me knocking an hour or two off or on to cope, if anyone knows of a thermostat with programable hysteresis like this I'm all ears.

 

1970’s 3 bed detached house in West Sussex. Mains gas disconnected September 2023.
Samsung HTQ 8kW heat pump using mostly existing radiators. House is warm 24/7 (normally between 20.3-20.6 C but currently with a newborn its 21-21.2 C).
Sunamp for hot water storage.
Solaredge 6kWp PV and 10kWh battery
Vehicle 2 Grid charger (used with a Leaf)
Wallbox EV charger (installed for Octopus Intelligent).
Home Assistant used for HEMS with lots of custom ESP devices to allow integration.

Insulation upgrades:
EPS cavity wall insulation.
Improved loft insulation (renewed and 300mm where possible).


   
👍
1
ReplyQuote



Page 1 / 2



Share:

Join Us!

Heat Pump Dramas?

Thinking about installing a heat pump but unsure where to start? Already have one but it’s not performing as expected? Or are you locked in a frustrating dispute with an installer or manufacturer? We’re here to help.

Pre-Installation Planning
Post-Installation Troubleshooting
Performance Optimisation
✅ Complaint Support (Manufacturer & Installer)

👉 Book a one-to-one consultation now.

Latest Posts

x  Powerful Protection for WordPress, from Shield Security
This Site Is Protected By
Shield Security