Posted by: @nearlynaught

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Hi there,

I’ve been searching all over for help with our ASHP setup, it’s a new build and I’m struggling to get in touch with the installer.

We have always run the system with forced DHW as anything less it runs out often.

Recently we had to reset it back on to this as it frequently switches back to standard, when we did this we lost heating (underfloor and radiators, the underfloors are individual room controls, radiators a thermostat)

I thought maybe something was broken, however running a self test showed the heating to kick in, you can see the light indicators on the heating zone motorised valves turn on with the test. If I turn DHW off, the heating zone valves kick in and my heating starts to warm up, however if they are on anything other than off or standard the valves turn off and close.

I have no idea what is stopping this as we’ve always had both on, I get our hot water will be priority if needed but the heating is never getting a chance to turn on.

Any ideas? Thanks!

Check the temperature setting for your DHW.

Is the system performing a legionella cycle?

Do you have a hot water circulation pump? If so switch it off.

Learn how to set your system to operate in weather compensation mode with any thermostats or TRV's set a couple of degrees above the desired temperature.

Posted by: @derek-m

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Posted by: @nearlynaught

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Hi there,

I’ve been searching all over for help with our ASHP setup, it’s a new build and I’m struggling to get in touch with the installer.

We have always run the system with forced DHW as anything less it runs out often.

Recently we had to reset it back on to this as it frequently switches back to standard, when we did this we lost heating (underfloor and radiators, the underfloors are individual room controls, radiators a thermostat)

I thought maybe something was broken, however running a self test showed the heating to kick in, you can see the light indicators on the heating zone motorised valves turn on with the test. If I turn DHW off, the heating zone valves kick in and my heating starts to warm up, however if they are on anything other than off or standard the valves turn off and close.

I have no idea what is stopping this as we’ve always had both on, I get our hot water will be priority if needed but the heating is never getting a chance to turn on.

Any ideas? Thanks!

Check the temperature setting for your DHW.

Is the system performing a legionella cycle?

Do you have a hot water circulation pump? If so switch it off.

Learn how to set your system to operate in weather compensation mode with any thermostats or TRV's set a couple of degrees above the desired temperature.

 

Hi Derek

Thanks for your reply.

DHW is set to 53* and is currently 50.1* on Forced. I switched it off overnight as I wanted to get the heating on for a bit.

It is set to, once a week but not currently in progress

Im not sure, how could I tell? The system has a water pump but I’m assuming this is for the heating system.

Im very confused by this, I’ve read a few bits about setting this but my installer left no information or manuals and I’m thinking that it wasn’t set correctly to begin with, even if this was the case we should still be able to get some heat right?

Posted by: @nearlynaught

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Posted by: @derek-m

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Posted by: @nearlynaught

↑

Hi there,

I’ve been searching all over for help with our ASHP setup, it’s a new build and I’m struggling to get in touch with the installer.

We have always run the system with forced DHW as anything less it runs out often.

Recently we had to reset it back on to this as it frequently switches back to standard, when we did this we lost heating (underfloor and radiators, the underfloors are individual room controls, radiators a thermostat)

I thought maybe something was broken, however running a self test showed the heating to kick in, you can see the light indicators on the heating zone motorised valves turn on with the test. If I turn DHW off, the heating zone valves kick in and my heating starts to warm up, however if they are on anything other than off or standard the valves turn off and close.

I have no idea what is stopping this as we’ve always had both on, I get our hot water will be priority if needed but the heating is never getting a chance to turn on.

Any ideas? Thanks!

Check the temperature setting for your DHW.

Is the system performing a legionella cycle?

Do you have a hot water circulation pump? If so switch it off.

Learn how to set your system to operate in weather compensation mode with any thermostats or TRV's set a couple of degrees above the desired temperature.

 

 

Hi Derek

Thanks for your reply.

DHW is set to 53* and is currently 50.1* on Forced. I switched it off overnight as I wanted to get the heating on for a bit.

It is set to, once a week but not currently in progress

Im not sure, how could I tell? The system has a water pump but I’m assuming this is for the heating system.

Im very confused by this, I’ve read a few bits about setting this but my installer left no information or manuals and I’m thinking that it wasn’t set correctly to begin with, even if this was the case we should still be able to get some heat right?

 

Your installer should have provided all the manuals and given instruction of how to operate the system. If your installer is MCS accredited, then report him to MCS.

You can download manuals from the internet once you find the make and model.

How many water pumps do you have? If you provide some photo's it may be possible to give better advice.

@nearlynaught If I correctly interpret your description of your system, the manuals you need are here 

https://www.samsung.com/uk/support/model/MIM-E03AN/

Page 17 of the "user manual" indicates that "DHW forced mode" gives the behaviour of 

"If you want to enjoy a leisurely bath or need a lot of warm water urgently,
select the Forced DHW mode.
• When this mode is enabled, it is assured that the full capacity of the heat pump
is only delivered for domestic water heating."

so you probably ought not to need to set your system to use that mode all the time! note that the manual also says that by default "Forced mode" doesn't have a timer, but that you can set one (in 3052). 3024, 3025 and 3026 are also settings you should look at as they relate to how long the system will stay in the heating vs DHW states (settings page 37, function diagram page 42)

as derek-m says this sounds like a classic case of installer definitely not done a proper handover and potentially not a proper commissioning either, so report them. If you can get them to come and sort it , as this is clearly a new or nearly new system, that would be the preferred option.  But in the meantime its worth looking at that manual and checking if the settings in there do apply to your system.

If I got the wrong system then please confirm what it is.

Posted by: @nearlynaught

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DHW is set to 53* and is currently 50.1* on Forced. I switched it off overnight as I wanted to get the heating on for a bit.

As Ian said, I would not be using forced mode, it disables heating.  Try economic, if that does not work, then standard.  Standard will use the heat pump for a bit, then top up with the immersion heater after a certain amount of time (as configured in your wired remote controller).

Posted by: @nearlynaught

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.... as it frequently switches back to standard,

Check your schedule in the wired remote controller, as some installer documents recommend a twice daily schedule to set DHW to standard mode.  That could explain the DHW mode changing back all the time, though you should be using economic or maybe standard (though having to use standard suggest some design issue with the setup)

Posted by: @nearlynaught

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We have always run the system with forced DHW as anything less it runs out often.

What cylinder is paired with the heat pump?

What level of hot water consumption was the system designed for?

Posted by: @iancalderbank

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@nearlynaught If I correctly interpret your description of your system, the manuals you need are here 

https://www.samsung.com/uk/support/model/MIM-E03AN/

Page 17 of the "user manual" indicates that "DHW forced mode" gives the behaviour of 

"If you want to enjoy a leisurely bath or need a lot of warm water urgently,
select the Forced DHW mode.
• When this mode is enabled, it is assured that the full capacity of the heat pump
is only delivered for domestic water heating."

so you probably ought not to need to set your system to use that mode all the time! note that the manual also says that by default "Forced mode" doesn't have a timer, but that you can set one (in 3052). 3024, 3025 and 3026 are also settings you should look at as they relate to how long the system will stay in the heating vs DHW states (settings page 37, function diagram page 42)

as derek-m says this sounds like a classic case of installer definitely not done a proper handover and potentially not a proper commissioning either, so report them. If you can get them to come and sort it , as this is clearly a new or nearly new system, that would be the preferred option.  But in the meantime its worth looking at that manual and checking if the settings in there do apply to your system.

If I got the wrong system then please confirm what it is.

I think this is gen 5 according to some videos I've seen, this is a gen 6 Samsung system.

Yes I think I can get them out to help, its just been hard to get hold of them, as its through our home builder. In the meantime I want to understand the system myself and try and get some heating haha.

Here are some photos which should help my explanation.

We have had it set to forced since it was installed and it would give us heating and hot water, maybe it would drop the heating when we were using hot water but not sure. We definitely enjoy a lot of leisurely baths, on standard we tend to run out of water.

@william1066

Posted by: @william1066

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As Ian said, I would not be using forced mode, it disables heating.  Try economic, if that does not work, then standard.  Standard will use the heat pump for a bit, then top up with the immersion heater after a certain amount of time (as configured in your wired remote controller).

Everyone has said the same thing, I'm really surprised though because we have used forced since moving in and always had hot water and heating, its really confused me.

Posted by: @william1066

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Check your schedule in the wired remote controller, as some installer documents recommend a twice daily schedule to set DHW to standard mode.  That could explain the DHW mode changing back all the time, though you should be using economic or maybe standard (though having to use standard suggest some design issue with the setup)

I had checked the schedule and there's nothing set on there.

Posted by: @william1066

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What cylinder is paired with the heat pump?

What level of hot water consumption was the system designed for?

It's a Joule tank, I can't see much more on the tank, but let me double check. I've posted a photo above.

I'm not sure, its a 3 bedroom house, its just myself and my partner but we both enjoy long baths, so I think our hot water usage is higher than normal.

Posted by: @derek-m

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Your installer should have provided all the manuals and given instruction of how to operate the system. If your installer is MCS accredited, then report him to MCS.

You can download manuals from the internet once you find the make and model.

How many water pumps do you have? If you provide some photo's it may be possible to give better advice.

Yeah, it was organised through the house builder so I'm struggling to get their details from them.

I've found loads of the old manuals just not this version.

I've uploaded some photos above, are the pumps inline? Do they look slightly like motorised valves? I think maybe two.

Posted by: @nearlynaught

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Posted by: @derek-m

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Your installer should have provided all the manuals and given instruction of how to operate the system. If your installer is MCS accredited, then report him to MCS.

You can download manuals from the internet once you find the make and model.

How many water pumps do you have? If you provide some photo's it may be possible to give better advice.

Yeah, it was organised through the house builder so I'm struggling to get their details from them.

I've found loads of the old manuals just not this version.

I've uploaded some photos above, are the pumps inline? Do they look slightly like motorised valves? I think maybe two.

I suspect that your builder may be the one responsible for supplying all the manuals relating to your equipment, and for adequate information and/or instruction.

We have been having mild weather recently, so I would not expect you to be having problems heating your home, unless you are using so much hot water that the system is in permanent DHW heating mode. Try taking showers for a few days to see if this resolves the lack of heating.

If the system worked adequately during colder weather conditions, then there is either something wrong with how the system has been configured, or a fault could have developed.

If your system is still under warranty then it may be best to tell your builder that the system is not fit for purpose and that you want the problems to be rectified ASAP. It may be best to deal with the issue via e-mail or text, so that you can keep a record.

@nearlynaught so the most obvious thing from that photo is

- its a fairly normal size tank. (a close up photo would hopefully show a model number with a size). But , if you are at two big baths a day, then it might well not be enough. get a close up photo of the tank for the size of it, then do the maths on your bath size (and other usage too don't forget).

- the lagging on the pipes could use a lot of improvement. there are gaps, there are un-lagged sections, there are unlagged valves. all of those will be acting as radiators.

- its appears to be in the loft, under an uninsulated roof. That means  the tank is in an uninsulated space. Therefore your heat loss from the tank (and the pipes) will be as though it was outside. That will not be helping you keep hold of decent amounts of hot water over time. It also puts you at freeze risk on some of the pipes - please be aware of this.

- I'm not sure because this is not something I've ever gone into ,  but I would be doubtful that it would be compliant with regs for heat loss design to have deliberately (the deliberate is implicit, because its a new build) sited the cylinder in an unheated space. It certainly doesn't get a degree from the university of common sense.

If I'd inherited this as a known issue with a older property I'd just bought, I'd be organising to DIY insulate massively around that cylinder, if I couldn't move it. Basically build an insulated box round it. As it's a new build, you perhaps ought to be going back to the builder with that?

quick and easy fix you can put (additional) loft insulation over pipes (lagged or unlagged). no rule against that. where there are active components (pumps) be a bit careful about airflow (overheating risk).

I think there's two possible avenues:

1. the design / settings are ok, but you are maxing out the cylinder capacity because a) you use lots of hot water b) the heat loss of the cylinder and surrounding pipework is far too high. Both of which contribute to the cylinder going cool, more quickly than you'd like, and leads you to using forced mode as a workaround.  a) is entirely up to your personal choices b) you could DIY fix, but the installer / builder really should.

or

2. your system settings / design / configuration are wrong ( and the high usage and high loss makes it worse.)

I think its not possible to separate the two at the moment.

I dont think it makes much difference for samsung whether you look at gen5 vs gen6 controller manuals. as far as I can tell (?), the numeric references for the settings stay the same. you should be able to logically follow, in which setting / state opens which zone valve and whether its the correct one. that may give more data down the "is system setup right or not" path.

the other thing I'd be tempted to do would be to move the LCD control panel from its current location to somewhere more accessible, so I could see what its doing without being in the loft ! but thats up to you 🙂

dupe post, apologies