@derek-m 

Honeywell Thermostat ?

I WILL replace the Honeywell Thermostat , initially using the external Thermistor kit  

https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/samsung-heat-pumps/Remote-Temperature-Sensor-MRW-TA.

When used, my internal Thermostat produces an E121 error screen :

I will, however,  keep the Honeywell just in case!

I am investigating the "homely" , but .........but , but .........the Samsung-Homely kit describes a Samsung with heat exchanger , two motors and fitting another Relay with enough power to drive BOTH of my motors!. i.e no Heat Exchanger removal required!!

Removing the Heat Exchanger :

I have been unable to get a quote from a  Plumber to remove my Heat Exchanger, second motor eta al.

The Plumbers have advised "that I should return to Gas".

No one wants to know!

Some quotes are > £5k involving the complete replacement of my Hot Water Tank with a Therminio connected electrically to a solar panel array on my roof at a further cost of ~£8k.

Heat pump miseries:

Short Cycling,Yes or NO?

My Heat Pump , may or may not be "Short Cycling". It depends on the observer.

It certainly LOOKS like my Heat Pump is still  "Short Cycling " according to the DECC definition.

What does your consumption look like?

Energy Consumption:

My Electrical consumption is :

Resulting in :

Further resulting in my refusal to use Hot Water, instead, using, six days a week:

On the seventh day I use the Legionnaires cycles to get hot Water for Friday only.

Back up Winter Heating:

During winter I use :

To supply heat, at a reasonable cost  for my living room.

The Mess!

This is the current state of my kitchen:

Given the above Please do NOT attack me for NOT providing more money than the £14k already spent on this Heat Pump!

Posted by: @iantelescope

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Given the above Please do NOT attack me for NOT providing more money than the £14k already spent on this Heat Pump!

@iantelescope, I am not an expert in any of the stuff that has been discussed in this thread so am not going to give any advice. However, I cannot let the above sentence go again without comment.

Having read back a long way in this thread (though admittedly not all 67 pages), quite a few people have tried to help but no-one has yet proposed any form of solution for you. The only proposals so far given to you have been different people's ways of simplifying the problem and all proposals have been reversable steps. In effect, everyone has been saying "please make this change, run the system for a short while and then tell us how the system reacted, then feel free to reverse the change so you know you're no worse off than before."

This is ALL simple troubleshooting 101. It doesn't need you to understand why someone's asking for a change to temporarily be made and it doesn't even mean the other person is barking up the right tree. However, if you do as asked then it is information anyone on the forum can choose to use or discard in their better understanding of your situation. If you don't do it then no-one else has the information they feel they need and so cannot help you. If you do do it, you may be doing things that are of no use whatsoever, but at least that means things can be ruled out.

As far as I can see, this process of trying to simplify the problem is also only asking you to make temporary changes that DO NOT REQUIRE MORE MONEY FROM YOU. No-one's attacking you for keeping your wallet shut and everyone's expecting that you will only make financial decisions once the path forward is fully understood, exactly as we would all expect anyone else to do as well.

Simple respect and good manners would dictate that if you ask someone for help or advice that you listen to what they have to say and perform any reasonable tasks they ask of you (i.e. not difficult ones, not hugely time consuming ones and not ones with cost implications). If they ask you to do something you don't want to do, the same respect and good manners would dictate you thank them for their time, let them know you've chosen not to follow their suggestions and let them know they can stand down. Any attempt to ask for help, argue with the advice given and yet still expect someone to continue trying to help is, specifically, lacking in respect and being rude. I understand your now very deeply embedded frustrations but that is not an excuse for failure to show the respect and manners I just outlined.

I am not a moderator here and so have no greater right to my opinion than anyone else. If you choose to heed my well-intentioned warning then things may be able to move forward. If you choose to ignore me - and you are obviously entitled to do so - then I will not comment further unless to answer direct questions.

@majordennisbloodnok 

I stand , rightly, corrected !

I did not fully appreciate , the value of the Advice given on this site.

However, you do seem to  appreciate my problem ...................

 Conflicting Advice ?

I have , regularly, been given advice that directly conflicts with the advice of others.

I have been told , repeatedly . by both sides , that failure to follow their advice would be expensive , if not fatal.

The "Advisers" are often "offended" that I do not ,instantly , follow their advice and invest  a wee bit more  in my Heat Pump.

Just a wee more bit more , and your heat Pump will work efficiently.

It is my "prerogative" to ignore their advice and  heed the skeptical advice of the "others".

Following the advice of the "others" would be inefficient , if not  fatal.

Cost

My Heat pump has cost £14000 so far.

My Heat pump has never been commissioned by my "installer".

With No proof of commissioning I was initially refused payments of my Grant , or my loan , by EST Scotland.

Draw-down

Being without "proof of proper commissioning " I received, from EST Scotland  a "Draw-down" payment of ~£5500 , £3000 as grant, and ~£2500 as loan.

Monthly cost

I am  currently paying ~£43 per month as  Loan repayment.

When the loan repayment is added to my greatly increased winter monthly Electrical energy consumption you can appreciate my alarm.

Advice from neighbours , Plumbers .........

Recently, both plumbers and neighbours have advised that I return to Gas.

Your balanced reply is greatly appreciated , I did not fully appreciate the other  perspective.

Posted by: @iantelescope

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Recently, both plumbers and neighbours have advised that I return to Gas.

I am very sorry for your predicament as I have said on multiple occasions. 

Regrettably I think I now agree with 'plumbers and neighbours' even though their advice is, in any other circumstance, not sensible, cost effective or environmentally friendly

My reasoning is as follows: 

1. You have told us that your system does not perform satisfactorily
2. You have, in all probability, a system that is perfectly capable of working satisfactorily if you would only follow the advice given here.  This advice has been, in all material respects, consistent, is given be people with no vested interest, and is extensively peer reviewed so objectively could be assigned a high level of trust.
3. However you have consistently refused to follow the advice given here, or even to perform some simple, reversible experiments to confirm what those here suspect.
4. You have not found a plumber/installer that is willing to give sound advice or do work that you trust, and it is clear that you have found people who have done things poorly
5. Given (3) and (4) it is certain that your system will continue to function in the way that you have described as unsatisfactory, and you will continue to waste your own time and most likely the time of others in fruitless attempts to help
6. Thus the only 'way out' is to revert to a system which is more tolerant of both poor design and control
7. A gas boiler, operated at a high flow temperature and controlled by a thermostat, is such a system
8. There will be considerable cost in the replacement, although you might be able to recoup some of this by selling your existing heat pump.  This cost would not be necessary if you were to follow the advice here, but it seems clear that you won't.
9. I can now therefore see no other way out.

@iantelescope 

Hi no I am a heating engineer with a client that is in similar situation to you. If you were near Inverness area I would offer to come over and visit to give some free initial advise.

John

Hi,

I was offering to help if you were local to Inverness area. Your short cycling you describe with one of the graphs you have in a post only showing 120watts is indicating to be that an input control device is switching off the heat pump I.e maybe a thermostat as described by others. 

@johnmacleod10 

Hi @johnmacleod10,

Yes , many thanks john, I myself discovered, some 6 months ago, that the Honeywell home Thermostat, installed by my "installer", was programmed to  deliver a fixed 10 minutes cycle .

The Cycle time was ,originally, attributed, by Samsung and Telford ,  to the small volume of water , some 6 litres , in the primary Water circuit. 

A buffer tank was thought to be the solution , with a 50 l tank increasing the volume to 56 Litres. 

The Cycle period increased from 8 minutes to a fixed 10 minutes, with the cause of the 10 cycle time set by the thermostat.

Now , 5/09/24 , the cycling period shows TWO Cycling frequencies , one set by the Thermostat to a fixed 20 minutes and the second frequency set by the standard "autumnal Short cycling experienced by all heat pumps.

The Average Cycle time is here reduced to ~10 minutes on the 1, 2 , 3 Sept 2024.

           Cycle time     Run Time (Minutes)

Here the first column shows the Average cycle time with the second column showing the average Run Time.

The DECC definition of short cycling is an average  Run time of less than 6 minutes .

The clashing cycle times are also shown with the Power here plotted  for the entire day .

The interference between the Thermostat Cycle time of 20 minutes with the "Autumnal" Short cycling component caused by the Volume of water within the pipe system when operating at the Heat Pump Minimum control Power is vividly displayed.

What a mess!

@johnmacleod10 @jamespa @derek-m   @Mars

The best laid plans!...................... Return to Gas?

Hi John,

Two years ago I was a fervent believer in Heat Pumps...............

After two years , during which , virtually every single part of my heat pump has been found to be either missing, broken , or badly fitted ..................I , now , hereby recant on all pro heat pump prejudices and  beliefs.

Return to Gas??

With my green beliefs now shattered , am seriously  advised that I should return to gas?

The Round trip from  Gas to Heat Pump and Back to Gas will cost in excess of £20000 .

Still paying !!

I am still , as we speak , paying for the loan on my Heat Pump ......................!

I am still , as we speak , paying for the loan on the removal of the 25 m gas pipe and meter connecting my house to the Gas mains. A removal forced upon me to get some repayment of my Loan and Grant !

COP ???

I have paid some £14000 for the privilege of owning a Heat Pump with a claimed Coefficient of Performance of 3.5 actually produces a Coefficient of Performance of ~1.8 .!

Some economy ??

HOT Water???

My Hot water, for the last year  is  supplied by a Bosch, two liter electric kettle. ......... The Heat Pump 200 liter tank being two expensive to run!

Installer??

MY installer has been struck OFF by the MCS /NIC on THREE occasions ...........................

with the NIC regretting that "NOTHING CAN BE DONE!"

Apparently I am at fault for not Investing a  further £1500 money in this folly!!

Would You ??

ian

@iantelescope 

As I say in my post above I am sorry to hear about your woes.

The fact is that you don't need to pay a further £1500 or anything like that, you can very probably get your system working satisfactorily (albeit not at its optimum) for an expenditure of precisely zero and certainly <£200.

Unfortunately you have declined to follow any of the very consistent advice freely given on this forum, or perform any of the wholly reversible experiments you have been asked to perform so that those seeking to help can better understand your system.  Had you done so it is very likely you would by now have a system that worked well.

For the reasons I set out in my earlier post, and as you have so far shown no sign of following the advice here, I reluctantly agree with those who are suggesting that you to return to gas.  This is not because its inherently better, but because a gas boiler operating inefficiently at a high flow temperature (which is what you will likely get) is much more tolerant of bad system design and a poor control strategy than is a heat pump.

Although I am sorry to hear about your woes, I am also sorry to say that you must now bear some responsibility for them.

I wish you luck whatever you decide to do, and remain willing to assist should you conclude that you might be better served by taking notice of those on this forum who have no vested interest, in preference to random tradesmen whose principal objective is to sell you something. 

Posted by: @iantelescope

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...

Apparently I am at fault for not Investing a  further £1500 money in this folly!!

...

No. You are at fault for asking for help and then not doing the (cost free) things people here have asked you to do to troubleshoot.

The suggestion on this forum that you should heed the advice to return to gas is purely because you won't listen to people trying to help you. No-one has questioned that you have suffered a bad install. Everyone who has tried to help you, however, has now at some point or another lost patience with your inclination to keep asking for help whilst not following the help given. Not only have you repeatedly complained about your position, you have repeatedly complained that people are trying to get you spending more money DESPITE not following the free requests that have no cost implications whatever.

You are standing at the bottom of a cesspit up to your waist in excrement. The sides of the pit are lined with ladders that concerned strangers are offering you and you are choosing to complain about your situation instead of climb any one of those ladders. No-one is asking for a ladder usage fee. People have even explained how to use the ladder in case it's not clear. It's your choice and, as this thread demonstrates, I've now lost count of the number of times you have ignored the help given.

I can put it no clearer than that. 67 pages so far of repeating the same thing has surely demonstrated to you that such repetition will result in 67 pages of not moving forward. Congratulations; you have been incredibly thorough in proving that not listening to freely provided advice will not help you. The sooner you can take that 67 pages of evidence and convince yourself a different approach is needed the sooner you might start making some progress. Over to you. 

@iantelescope

So how much would it cost to remove your present heat pump system and replace it with a gas boiler? Who will pay for this exercise?

You could try the following.

1) Switch off the power to your system.

2) Disconnect the wires to your Honeywell thermostat and connect them together under only one of the terminals, such that the heat pump is permanently enabled.

3) Switch the power back on.

4) Adjust the flow rate on the primary and secondary circuits to approximately 20 lpm.

5) Set the warm end of the WC curve to a LWT of 25C at an OAT of 20C.

6) Set the cold end of the WC curve to a LWT of 45C at an OAT of -5C.

7) Allow the heat pump to operate in WC mode, monitor the various temperatures and report the results.

@derek-m

Chernobyl II

Many thanks derek , your balanced response is appreciated.

Have a look at the following graph of power taken on the 9 th September :

My Sharky Water power meter ,measuring power to the Radiator circuit ,appears to be showing a power consumption of 1.5 Mega Watts!

Clearly , this spurious measurement results from a single measurement of Energy of 15 KJ taken every twenty minutes over a shockingly short Run time of 10 milliseconds:

Power = 1.5 X 10^4 /  ( 10 X 10^-3)   =  1.5 MW Joules per second  or Watts.

I KNOW I am NOT Burning energy at this rate , it is only a spurious measurement caused by a Run time of 10 milliseconds every twenty minutes...........but this does NOT inspire confidence!

You are correct , the major problem I face is replacing the Thermostat .

"Homely" recommend their Thermostat for my Samsung with my Samsung being  already fitted with TWO Water circuits. The very same Water circuits, Motors and Buffer tank that  many recommend that I remove!!

I have, from the start asked for the removal of the Heat Exchanger .................receiving condescension from both Samsung-Dallium , Samsung-France and my "installer". It will never happen".

Please do not attack me , the customer,  I am an past  expert at self denigration !