Microbore Central Heating Plumbing, will it be a barrier / pain?
After having my ASHP installed some 9 months ago and enjoying relative success with it (still in the sweaking stage as the seasons change) my Father-in-law has been following my journey with some interest. Based on the performance of my system he has now decided to look deeper into having his own solution installed.
I had a quick squint at all the main points in the building before he goes deeper into getting professionals in to assess the feasibility and found the following:
- He has a detached 4 bedroom house which was built with modern materials approximately 15 years ago, containing a good level of loft insulation (approx 200 - 300mm).
- The radiators are all modern double panel with fins which at a guess have been sized correctly to the various rooms by looking at the physical size and the fact there is never any cold parts of the house, even in depths of Winter. This would have to be varied by doing proper heat loss calculations and radiator size measuring at a later date.
- Radiators are plumbed using microbore pipe.
- He currently heats the property with an oil boiler, unsure if condensing or uncondensing
With my pigeon knowledge, the potential issue I can see with his system is the radiators are plumbed in using microbore pipes. Knowing that ASHP's run at lower temperatures therefore requiring a faster flow rate, regardless of the radiator size (which may need increasing as they are potentially the correct size not oversized), will this size pipe be a real issue due to its small size, restricting flow and therefore the required heat transfer to each room?
It would be good to get some feedback on experiences / thoughts from members. I fear if he is going to have to replace his pipework and potentially the radiators in addition to the cost of a new ASHP, this sadly, could be a deal breaker for him. This would be a shame as he is retired and would possibly find running a ASHP all day a little cheaper than his current oil boiler.
Regards
5 Bedroom House in Cambridgeshire, double glazing, 300mm loft insulation and cavity wall insulation
Design temperature 21C @ OAT -2C = 10.2Kw heat loss
Bivalent system containing:
12Kw Samsung High Temperature Quiet (Gen 6) heat pump
26Kw Grant Blue Flame Oil Boiler
All controlled with Honeywell Home smart thermostat
The microbore pipes might not be an immediate no-no, but some investigation would be needed as to whether they would work along with the radiators. Heat Geek have a youtube video on the issue. To keep costs down in my install, I was able to just buy a couple of very large radiators and then move the replaced ones into smaller/bedrooms, in the end only getting rid of a couple of small ones.
House-2 bed partial stone bungalow, 5kW Samsung Gen 6 ASHP (Self install)
6.9 kWp of PV
5kWh DC coupled battery
Blog: https://thegreeningofrosecottage.weebly.com/
Heatpump Stats: http://heatpumpmonitor.org/system/view?id=60
Five of our 14 radiators are supplied with 10mm plastic microbore, with the rest on 15mm copper. The microbore is all installed behind plasterboard walls, so would be a pain to replace and we'd probably end up with surface mounted copper instead, which would add significant cost.
Some of the installers we spoke to expressed concern and/or dire warnings about using the microbore with a heat pump, while others were confident that it would be fine (one suggested we might consider a secondary circulation pump on this part of the loop, but only if necessary).
From what I can gather, those in the know consider 10mm microbore to be OK, but not 8mm, so this might make a difference to your options.
I'm just about to book in an installation without upgrading any of the pipework, so will find out the truth in due course. I've been running the gas heating at 50 or below for a while now and, although it can take longer to get up to temperature, once this is achieved, it seems to work fine, so I have reasonable confidence.
I have 10mm copper microbore installed behind dot & dab plasterboard for the downstairs radiators. I’ve done my heat loss survey and have concluded that I will probably have to replace most of the radiators and add a 3rd vertical radiator in the kitchen/diner. I’ve done the maths on the pipe work and will need to repipe the existing two as the microbore won’t deliver the required heat to the kitchen diner I also have a problem with a short 15mm section under an upstairs floor, but it’s manageable. For the remaining downstairs radiators, the pitch of the rad valves at either ends of the radiators and their distance from the wall will have to change. In order to get project approval from my dear wife, I have to avoid the need for redecorating (although I can’t see how this can be avoided in the kitchen/diner). I’d be interested in seeing photos of how others have addressed replacing radiators in such situations (not necessarily with microbore). It seems to pose a three-dimensional puzzle as well as risk additional obstacle to the flow.
@technogeek, we’re going to have to address this issue with our system. Meeting Ken Bone this week was incredibly enlightening. One key takeaway from our chat was the importance of getting kW down the pipe, which boils down to velocity. Our system also uses microbore, but that's far from a deal breaker. I'll keep everyone updated on our progress, because our system—whether as a whole or in parts—is like many other retrofit systems across the UK, which means there's a lot to share and learn.
What I have learnt so far is that designing for microbore, it's crucial to ensure that sufficient water is supplied to deliver the required heat at the designated Delta T (∆). In some cases, adding an additional pump may be necessary to achieve the required flow rate. A buffer (but a well designed, balanced and installed one) might be necessary. To account for this, consider adding an extra 10% allowance to the radiator size on the relevant circuits. Additionally, using the highest flow rate fittings possible is important to minimise parasitic losses and ensure efficient system performance.
Buy Bodge Buster – Homeowner Air Source Heat Pump Installation Guide: https://amzn.to/3NVndlU
From Zero to Heat Pump Hero: https://amzn.to/4bWkPFb
Subscribe and follow our Homeowners’ Q&A heat pump podcast
to the OP, one important factor will be the size and length of the run to the manifolds from the radiators and what size the feed to manifolds are.
@mattc All the existing (designed for T50) radiators are single panel, only around half with fins. I think the system was probably well designed when the house was built 25 years ago. Most, if not all, radiators will need replacing but we only fitted the tall column radiators last year (I blame myself as much as the plumber who spec’d them for a lack of foresight).
I can only imagine that replacing the radiators will require some Heath-Robinson adaptations at each end.
- 21 Forums
- 1,875 Topics
- 40.9 K Posts
- 14 Online
- 2,196 Members
Join Us!
Heat Pump Dramas?
Thinking about installing a heat pump? Or already have one but it’s not performing as it should? Rob is here to help!
✅ Pre-Installation Planning
✅ Post-Installation Troubleshooting
✅ Performance Optimisation
Latest Posts
-
RE: Vaillant Arotherm ASHP gets noisier when it gets colder outside
I didn’t hear any problem with that noise it was less t...
By Judith , 3 hours ago
-
RE: New Project! ASHP, Solar PV + Battery, MVHR!
@editor yes please Mars, that would be fantastic.
By nickmorgan , 4 hours ago
-
Struggling to Find a Top Heat Pump Installer? We Can Connect You With the Best Installers in the UK
We know from homeowner’s posts and emails how stressful...
By Mars , 5 hours ago
-
RE: Baxi Air Source Heat Pump tips and tricks please
@cathoderay Our 01.00 to 06.00 electricity tariff is go...
By Cathyem1 , 5 hours ago
-
-
RE: Recommendation for Consultants in West Yorkshire for 1850's House Installation
Welcome to the forums. I’ll connect you some recommende...
By Mars , 6 hours ago
-
RE: Large ASHP recommendations for listed house
I’ll connect you via email (using the email address you...
By Mars , 6 hours ago
-
RE: Vaillant & OVO partner up to offer Heat Pump Plus
An update - got through to a helpful Octopus employee, ...
By samiebon1 , 7 hours ago
-
There should be no significant change in the load on th...
By JohnR , 8 hours ago
-
RE: Ideal Logic 10kW Heat Pump Pipes Noisy and Very Expensive to Run
@ajbevster If it's fully pushed in yes, better if it...
By JamesPa , 8 hours ago
-
RE: Controversial opinions - pure weather compensation, buffer tank, heat loss, oversized heat pumps
@heatgeek Thank you, yes this is quite a meal and I'...
By Uk_pete_2000 , 9 hours ago
-
-
RE: How To Balance Radiators & the Role of the Lockshield Valve: A Homeowner's Guide
Its the actual flow rate, after you have bypassed the b...
By JamesPa , 12 hours ago
-
RE: The good, the bad and the not that great – my heat pump installation
@lokisam Thank you for reply. I have posted here bef...
By Dwynwen , 14 hours ago
-
RE: Is My Midea Heat Pump Inherently Defective?
Absolutely, I am very aware of that! Moving to a fan co...
By cathodeRay , 16 hours ago
-
-
RE: Noise problems with newly installed Samsung 8kW ASHP
@odynsfee Hi, I only just saw your post. Sorry to hear ...
By Lokisam , 1 day ago
-
RE: Best way to heat and store hot water with ASHP and Solar - am I being stupid?
@nickmorgan you’re absolutely spot on with your thinkin...
By Mars , 1 day ago
-
RE: Grant Aerona3 with Octopus Cosy tariff
Unless I completely misunderstood you (in which case ap...
By JamesPa , 1 day ago
Latest Topics
-
By bretix 11 hours ago
-
Large ASHP recommendations for listed house
By Greenlover75 13 hours ago
-
VisitaHeatPump Participants - Guidance Please
By Toodles 1 day ago
-
By KundK 1 day ago
-
Pipes and cables exposed on roof
By MichelleC 2 days ago
-
By Silverkop 3 days ago
-
Baxi Air Source Heat Pump tips and tricks please
By Cathyem1 3 days ago