@timmcc - again, interesting. Do you get the full 'supervisor' version ('experience') of HA with this set up? The reason I ask is there is a Windows version of HA that runs in a similar way (huge python library that just runs on Windows) but it ends up as a very limited version of HA. I did manage some minor hacking but it ended up in the nice try but no cigar ashtray.

@cathoderay no, this setup is 'Home Assistant Core'. The supervisor install option requires much of what you don't want (VMs etc). I'm not sure what extra it gives you to be honest - I've not found a need for anything it provides thus far.

@timmcc - supervisor does sound rather bossy, a bit like having a police officer in your living room, and, like you, I am not exactly sure what it adds, I just (wrongly) assumed a supervisor installation would provide the maximum amount of user control, when it doesn't, eg no third party software. It's a bit like Homely - 'Homely doesn't give you control, it takes control'. The supervisor does the same thing, it doesn't give control, it takes control.

I will have another look at the HA installation guides and work out what my best option(s) are.   

@timmcc - I've been through the HA installation guide and based on the table below from HA's documentation, and the fact the 'Supervised' version on Linux is, according to HA, not for the faint-hearted: "This method is considered advanced and should only be used if one is an expert in managing a Linux operating system, Docker and networking." Given that anything HA describes as easy is usually anything but, and the fact I know very little or nothing about Linux, Docker and networking, I think going down the manual supervised route is not going to end well.

The problem with the Core/venv (and Container) installation methods for me is that you cannot according to this table use add-ons, which I make regular use of. Examples include a Samba share add-on that allows me to access HA config log and database files from Windows (quickest way to do this for me) and a Sqlite browser add-on which can also run sql queries, a quick and easy way of checking what is going on in the database. It looks like I am stuck with the HA OS installation for now if I want to keep using add-ons.      

@cathoderay Thanks for your reply. I did at least check the panel as the heat pump was starting from cold. It looked feasible that it was achieving a COP of nearly 4 on a 39c flow temperature. The input output temperatures were 38/33c with a flow rate of 1.5m3/h. With our upstairs on I get a 40-60 minute cycle of approximately equal on and off times. If the whole house is being heated it doesn’t. Two people in a 300m2 property means we don’t heat it all and limit the times we heat - we are content if not cosy. Before the recent Solar+battery installation (22 days ago) I used the wood burner for the downstairs. Now I feel that the ASHP would have run more efficiently with more load.

I guess others especially with EcoDans (judging by other threads) are feeling the ASHP a bad move. I don’t use weather compensation and because the water temperature at the rads is 32c with pump set to 39c I don’t go lower. Even with new oversized rads the warm up time is too long if I go much lower. I don’t want to run everything 24/7 but realise several hours is needed. I do run it on the off peak tariff though to reduce the work when we wake up. Now the battery + solar means we hardly draw any peak rate electric. 

I haven’t decided whether to buy the FreedomHP cloud monitoring. I am formalising a complain against my installer who wanted my to provide my daily monitoring data to him prior to payment and then has provided nothing when I said there is nothing in MSmartHome. I have a dozen issues approximately that they have ignored. He certified against the 2017 MCS standards/guidelines. I agree with you comment about MCS.

Phil

Posted by: @filipe

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@cathoderay Thanks for your reply. I did at least check the panel as the heat pump was starting from cold. It looked feasible that it was achieving a COP of nearly 4 on a 39c flow temperature. The input output temperatures were 38/33c with a flow rate of 1.5m3/h. With our upstairs on I get a 40-60 minute cycle of approximately equal on and off times. If the whole house is being heated it doesn’t. Two people in a 300m2 property means we don’t heat it all and limit the times we heat - we are content if not cosy. Before the recent Solar+battery installation (22 days ago) I used the wood burner for the downstairs. Now I feel that the ASHP would have run more efficiently with more load.

I guess others especially with EcoDans (judging by other threads) are feeling the ASHP a bad move. I don’t use weather compensation and because the water temperature at the rads is 32c with pump set to 39c I don’t go lower. Even with new oversized rads the warm up time is too long if I go much lower. I don’t want to run everything 24/7 but realise several hours is needed. I do run it on the off peak tariff though to reduce the work when we wake up. Now the battery + solar means we hardly draw any peak rate electric. 

I haven’t decided whether to buy the FreedomHP cloud monitoring. I am formalising a complain against my installer who wanted my to provide my daily monitoring data to him prior to payment and then has provided nothing when I said there is nothing in MSmartHome. I have a dozen issues approximately that they have ignored. He certified against the 2017 MCS standards/guidelines. I agree with you comment about MCS.

Phil

If the LWT from your heat pump is 39C, but you are only getting 32C at your radiators, then I would suggest that you search for a buffer tank and check the temperatures and flow rates around it.

@filipe - sorry to hear you have had a bumpy ride but as you will have read elsewhere on the forum, this is not unusual.

I did try running with a fixed flow temp and weather comp off last spring, but found costs were considerably higher than using weather comp, and so have gone back to that. The problem is that it really needs to be on 24/7 because, as you say warm up times are very slow, and having it on 24/7 means using several kWh overnight, when the house doesn't need to be heated, so it starts the day reasonably warm. My particular setup is such that a recovery from a period of cooling can take not hours, but days. One of my reasons for being able to control the heat pump through HA is to be able to boost the LWT after a setback, in effect do something similar to Ecodan's auto adaption. To be able to do that, I need to know both how far below the design temp the rooms are (to answer the question is a boost needed) and then the current set LWT so I can add the boost. Conceptually, this isn't too difficult eg if desired room temp - actual room temp > 5 then new set LWT = current LWT + 5, but I am sure the practical achievement of that will not be a stroll in the park, in fact it will make going up the North Face of the Eiger look like a stroll in the park.

Have Freedom agreed to sell you their monitoring direct? Normally they won't deal with us mere end users, being elevated as they are on their B2B plane. If you are instead considering buying it from your installer, you could try reminding your installer when he asks for your data that the heat pump data is yours, perhaps he should be paying you for it.

Really, we don't need all this nonsense. Our heat pump data should be available in sufficient detail and with straightforward access so we can run our heat pumps as effectively and efficiently as we can.

@derek-m makes a good point, most Freedom based installs do have a heat thief*, but worth noting it is normally a low loss header or plate heat exchanger. 

* I should add that technically they are not a heat thief, instead more of a blockage in the system that means less heat gets to your house, but heat thief is a fun way to think about them. Mine steals about 5 degrees off my LWT.          

@derek-m Well it can reach 34c at times. This is what I have, which I was unaware of until it was fitted. It was designed by the manager to keep the ASHP and rads separated. It is designed to sit underneath the Tempest DHW cylinder. 

 Phil

Posted by: @filipe

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@derek-m Well it can reach 34c at times. This is what I have, which I was unaware of until it was fitted. It was designed by the manager to keep the ASHP and rads separated. It is designed sits underneath the Tempest DHW cylinder. 

 Phil

It looks like you could have a buffer tank and plate heat exchanger. Lucky you. 🙄 

Do you also have lots of water pumps?

Posted by: @filipe

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This is what I have, which I was unaware of until it was fitted. It was designed by the manager to keep the ASHP and rads separated. It is designed sits underneath the Tempest DHW cylinder. 

That is interesting, it doesn't look like a standard Freedom based installation (using their blue installer's guide), and unlike the Freedom based installations, it actually says it the PHE can be removed. You also have some spec details, I had none. 

Opinions are divided on whether they (PHE or LLH) should be removed. The standard Freedom line has normally been if you remove them, you kiss goodbye to your warranty (though at times they remove this). Some (@batalto) do remove them because they get in the way of performance, which they clearly do. But some (me included for the time being) do like the idea of keeping the primary ASHP and secondary rad circuits separate. Two advantages: (a) rad crud doesn't get into the ASHP circuit and (b) you can work on/drain down the rad circuit without touching the ASHP circuit.   

@derek-m So I might be ok with what I have. It seems the heat thief has a similar temperature drop. There seemed to be benefits in not circulating glycol which is more viscous.

I am parsimonious so I heat to meet our needs or to be more precise my wife’s showers. I’ve given up using hot water for washing hands and pots and pans. I am grappling with getting it to heat on demand rather than when the sensor shows it below 38c because when she washes her hair she needs it to start near 48c (the higher temperatures just take more energy) to finish warm enough. I prefer to heat in the day or with off peak electric.

The DHW sensor is in the top inlet so we don’t heat a 210l tank completely for 2 of us. The sensor can be moved to the bottom but so far no problems in the summer for family visits.

There is a CH pump, but my niggle is that it is not controlled by the ASHP but by the zones. This means that if the DHW comes on the CH Pump continues running. Also if I use holidays the CH pump runs. This seems contrary to MCS which expects the system to be designed to run efficiently. The pump is massive and I had to set it to the lowest speed. The installer was uncertain about the use of microbore, but in fact the radiator he added with 15mm is no hotter than others. The microbore was well designed 34 years ago with masses of 22mm pipework to numerous manifolds spread over three zones.

Phil

@cathoderay just to clarify, Freedom actually said I could remove the LLH. They simply said I needed to get someone in to verify it wasn't needed and they recommended that person. So my warranty is intact