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Is this a bad installation and is there something wrong with my Samsung heat pump?

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(@david999)
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@ant87 hi guys I found these docs in a folder and not sure what they mean in direct relation to where I should be. 

how do I read these in a meaningful way if you know what I mean and what I should be comparing them to. Loads of figures but don’t mean much. 


   
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(@david999)
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IMG 2942
IMG 2944
IMG 2943
IMG 2945

   
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(@ant87)
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@david999 11.19kw heat loss means that you need a minimum of around 35-36l/m to meet the heat load at the design temperature, if you are only getting 29l/m (if there is glycol in the system) your system will be maxing out at around 9.2kw so on paper the system is not meeting the minimum requirement. That is probably the discussion to be had with the installer, designed at 11.19kw but delivering 9kw...

The 28mm at design load would have a velocity of around 1.1m/s so within the boundaries of acceptable albeit not ideal and so I reckon the the pump may be what you need to look at. Upsizing the pipes would be ideal but depends on how invasive it will be and whether you could put up with it.

It might be worth asking the installer to clean the filter, check glycol levels etc. but I think the improvement may be minimal.

What pump is on the primary circuit? I see you have a buffer so the primary pump doesn't have that much work to do.

 


   
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(@david999)
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@ant87 it’s running with no antifreeze at the min since they are still debating what to do. It has two wilo 40w pumps one for primary that they moved since it was the wrong way around and one for the rad system.  The one they moved they stuck beside the flow meter and I mean like 4 inches away and on the other side of the flow meter, again close, the filter.  They couldn’t get the three port valve to work plumbed the correct way so it’s installed reversed but works, but it’s a Honeywell and it seems they are a poor choice for any heat pump. From the schematic it shows two 2 port valves but they went for one 3 port.   I feel they are treating it like a gas boiler, and I doubt it’s  possible to get the target figures without changing to 35mm pipe.  There is a hum off the pipes at the minute at 29lm so goodness knows what it will sound like at 46, or do I accept slower flow


   
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(@ant87)
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@david999  If you had 36-40lpm I would accept as you know it would atleast be able to supply enough heat for your particular property, with only being 29lpm I would say that it needs increasing as currently it is not delivering enough so at your design temperature (i.e. -3) you may find the property doesn't heat up affectively.

 

Your 3-Port valve is usually the better option, and the cylinder should be on port A, (cylinder on port B for boilers). Honeywell aren't the favourable choice, although the chosen pump would take in to account the restriction of the Honeywell. Again, it could be as simple as changing the 3-port valve and removing the restrictive flow meters which would be much simpler than alternatives. Normally you wouldn't get too much resonance from a 28mm pipe but I guess that depends on many factors.

Have you got the name/code for the Wilo pump? The best pumps for the Samsung appear to be the Grundfos UPM4XL from Midsummer, its a 9m head pump and max input is 90w I believe.

 

 


   
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(@david999)
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@ant87

IMG 2635

Thats the pump there running on speed 3


   
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(@ant87)
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@david999 That pump is a very small 6m head pump, I think at your target of 45lpm that pump can only produce something like 1.8m head.

The pressure drop across the heat pump condensor is around 2.1m head at 45lpm.

image

 


   
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(@david999)
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@ant87 thanks for that, although it’s stressful in a way it’s interesting learning about my system and all you guys have been incredible 👍


   
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Transparent
(@transparent)
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@david999 - you started this topic 2 months ago (24th March).

It's now 24-pages long, and I notice that you've been gradually changing the way in which you post here, to provide further detail and clarity.
The subsequent replies you've received have reflected the greater level of observation you've provided us with.

a: Although you still need your ASHP installation faults to be resolved, what message would you be giving to others having a heat-pump installed?

b: In a typical 'pub type' conversation what points would you be making about installers, training, certificates and regulation (by MCS) etc?

c: What changes would you like to see made in order for home-owners to be more likely to achieve a satisfactory HP installation?

[Now that a General Election has been called, all possible 'changes' are on-the-table. Future policies and implementation strategies are very likely to be different.]

Save energy... recycle electrons!


   
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(@david999)
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@transparent it’s been a long journey and what started as an icing issue led to many more issues. What looked like a state of the art full of mystery and witchcraft installation became a train wreck. I started off fit and well and now facing several visits to hospital for surgery but remain positive.  But most of it is due to the help here, where to look, what to look for and why. So thank you all. 

a. Not many folk have an engineering background like I, but even with this it was beyond me to know what was correct. Installers properly qualified are thin on the ground and most apply ASHP installations on the principles of standard gas heating systems. My company has won awards over a number of years and one would regard that as “ in safe hands” wrong!!  A company called HEAT GEEK runs training courses and applies accreditation to the engineers, regulates it and strikes ones off who don’t meet standards, they are graded at certain levels of achievement and required to maintain this standard returning as and when required for further training, a bit like gas fitters. So if I could wind back the clock I would want one of these individuals on my installation team or at least oversee it.  Now I have no idea how good they are but it’s what I suggest. 

b. In terms of a general opinion, what I have seen so far is an appalling level of workmanship, skills and equipment.  My installation completed but no equipment to carry out any level of commissioning. My heat pump is icing up, they all do that it’s fine, how much antifreeze does it get, 25 litres should be enough but only 2% of what it should be. What speed should my pumps run at, a small house 1 and a bigger 2 or 3. Totally devoid of any skill other than basic plumbing or central heating.  What training do they receive ? A remote one hours computer course, this qualifies them to sign off manufacturers 7 year warranty, the manufacturer doesn’t regulate this. Certainly never offered to inspect mine. 

called MCS for technical advice and would have been better going and asking the post man.  My installer took numerous photos and if they went to MCS for a desktop appraisal as one would do with building control then shame on them. In fact there is a current video from heat geek where he explains the same issues I have, with a well known reputable company and it’s gone 360 degrees with everyone failing to resolve it and the owner paying to have it resolved.  I say name and shame these companies. Post on every forum you can and make them a pariah. 

c. The system is currently broken and unless a government body oversees these installations we face serious consequences in the near future. Local authorities are committed to fitting thousands of these and if fitted like mine then a fortune to put right. MCS is not fit for purpose and needs to go. Its a paper exercise and the MCS stamp of approval worthless and the insurers that support MCS need to step up to the bar and demand they do their job. 

probably 25 pages now 😊


   
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(@jamespa)
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Posted by: @david999

the MCS stamp of approval [is] worthless

I profoundly disagree, the MCS stamp of approval is worth a fortune.  Unfortunately the people to whom it is worth a fortune are installers, not customers.  The MCS rules pretty much protect installers from liability, so long as they follow them.  The rules were written by the industry, who would you expect them to protect? 

 

'Contractually compliant but unfit for purpose' comes to mind!

 

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 2 times by JamesPa

   
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(@david999)
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@jamespa yup but if a house burns down and takes out a family or a whole authority of heat pumps fail and a council have to pick up the bill who gets the blame. They just sit in the dock crying playing daft claiming nobody told them and really really sorry. But the planet is stuffed and no amount of heat pumps will make any difference, zero.  If we can’t start cooling down this planet soon, and we can’t. It’s game over, it’s a planet jim but not as we know it and there is no planet B.  2050 to net zero ha ha who are you kidding.  26 years!! In the past 5 years it’s gone downhill seriously and if the recent events were not El Niño generated as scientists hope we could be in a runaway climate. So don’t buy a big box of cornflakes. 

off my soap box now.  Probably up at 27 pages now 😬


   
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