Advice needed on inefficient Samsung ASHP installation
Interesting you mention that you’re surprised most installers don’t set up their curve like this, any heat pump supplied from freedom over the years that GH was in charge, would have been setup with a pretty reasonable curve of 37@15, 50@0 and with external thermostat control.
I always thought that was a bit of a cop out from a design perspective, but having looked at most heat pump controllers on the market I’ve come to the same conclusion as GH did, they’re awful things to use as a thermostat 🤣.
Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 15kWh Seplos Mason, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating with air/air for shoulder months, 10 acres of heathland/woods.
My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, ASHP with rads + UFH, triple glazed, retrofit IWI in troublesome rooms, small rear extension.
It is a cop out and as I say upthread will incur a penalty of 3-6% or more if it's more than a a couple of degrees out. However installers don't wast to return to site and setting up the perfect wc curve is iterative, so if running cost isn't critical it's an approach that has attractions. I'm not advocating it, just recognising it.
Why 37 at 15 incidentally, that's almost obviously too high in most cases, leading to a further penalty. Is this so that radiators always feel warm to avoid callouts?
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
@jamespa yes… it’s what I run at too. Keeps the wife happy.
Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 15kWh Seplos Mason, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating with air/air for shoulder months, 10 acres of heathland/woods.
My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, ASHP with rads + UFH, triple glazed, retrofit IWI in troublesome rooms, small rear extension.
I just ran the numbers through my WC simulator. This calculates, based on Ecodan R32 data, the efficiency gain from various WC curves relative to fixed temperature operation, based on an OAT pattern representative of southern England. If we take your 50;0, 37;15 case and assume that this is 5C higher above the ideal' WC curve until it reaches the floor at 37C, then the curve gives a 10% improvement on fixed temperature operation, as opposed to 20% if the WC curve is set up properly. So you can either look at that as a 12.5% penalty relative to optimum, or as a halving of the benefit of WC.
Most of the penalty is due to the curve being above the optimum value not the ('lizzie ') floor. So one good approach would be to set it up initially this way and (during the coldest season) gradually reduce the cold end until it didn't quite heat the house, then turn it up by a degree.
As I say I'm not advocating this method, only recognising it.
4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.
I should have added more flesh to my post but I was on my phone - We actually set the top end of the curve to the design flow temp, 45 degrees in my case (so 47.5 flow). The bottom end of the curve was also chosen as we have fan coils in some rooms/areas (kitchen, hallway, bathroom), and no-one wants to stand under cold air...
I also figured that lifting from 15 degrees ambient to 37.5 is hardly much work that I wasn't going to sweat the details. Also handy to have the rads deliver some heat on the odd occasion that it's 18 degrees outside and raining and the wife wants the heat on. Handy to be able to deliver some heat into the property in that case. I almost thought about switching to a fixed flow temp of 45 during the summer for this precise reason, but haven't needed to yet.
Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 15kWh Seplos Mason, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating with air/air for shoulder months, 10 acres of heathland/woods.
My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, ASHP with rads + UFH, triple glazed, retrofit IWI in troublesome rooms, small rear extension.
I did a couple of days testing running weather comp and a fixed flow temperature with thermostat control on similar average temperature days, one being 8.7 and the other 9.0. Very little difference in target flow temp.
Fixed flow temp (to simulate a slightly elevated flow temperature), compressor cutoff was 30.8, WC obviously varied between 29.1 and 29.2. But the starting temp was the biggest variable. WC never started the compressor until return temp had dropped to 21.6 degs, while the fixed with thermostat could be as high as 25 degs.
Fixed and thermostat
Space heating CoP 4.8
kWh used over 24hrs 6.8kWh
WC
Space heat CoP 5.4
kWh used over 24 hrs 4.6
You will see from the image the difference in run duration and frequency of starts. The one with plenty of starts is the thermostat.
CoP is generally made up of two components at a fixed outside temperature. Flow temperature and dT, the wider the dT the better the CoP.
The rest was not definitive as the temp varied over the day. But a 30% reduced kWh used was quite a suprise, when comparing WC to using the thermostat. Think that must be down to the the increased shorter duration cycling and less higher quality heat being delivered
The image below is the day I implemented the change in strategy to the left straight WC to the right thermostat control. The off period is some solar gain switching off the heat pump.
Maxa i32V5 6kW ASHP (heat and cooling)
6.5kW PV
13.5kW GivEnergy AIO Battery.
-
Yes, the "zoning with ASHP" topic again...
8 hours ago
-
My Octopus Cosy 6 Heat Pump Journey: From Quote to Completion
3 months ago
-
My British Gas – Heat Force ASHP Installation: A Frustrating Experience
7 months ago
-
Low shower pressure after ASHP retrofit
7 months ago
-
What is Wrong with our Heat Pump Installation?
1 year ago
- 22 Forums
- 2,048 Topics
- 44.7 K Posts
- 44 Online
- 3,276 Members
Join Us!
Trusted Installers
Struggling to find a reliable heat pump installer? A poor installation can lead to inefficiencies and high running costs. We now connect homeowners with top-rated installers who deliver quality work and excellent service.
✅ Verified, trusted & experienced installers
✅ Nationwide coverage expanding
✅ Special offers available
Latest Posts
-
RE: Renewables & Heat Pumps in the News
Historically, it's been low generation from fossil fuel...
By Transparent , 4 hours ago
-
RE: Hydronic plinth heaters and ASHPs
@judith thanks. Good to know yours is working well. The...
By benson , 5 hours ago
-
RE: Additional Battery v Wind Turbine v Ripple
There was a call today for Ripple investors and amongst...
By Judith , 8 hours ago
-
RE: Yes, the "zoning with ASHP" topic again...
Thanks, James — that’s a really encouraging and fair re...
By HarryRea , 8 hours ago
-
@heatgeek I kind of get it… but aren’t you still in the...
By SUNandAIR , 9 hours ago
-
-
RE: Commencing on an ASHP Installation Process
I think you may very well be right and of course A2A ca...
By JamesPa , 1 day ago
-
-
RE: Agile: average import cost vs other tariffs?
@old_scientist We are with SSEN and our G99 application...
By Toodles , 2 days ago
-
RE: Solar Power Output – Let’s Compare Generation Figures
Yes. Storing the solar generation within the home is gr...
By Transparent , 3 days ago
-
RE: ASHP Ecodan L9 error - No Heating but Hot Water
@phoenix15, @heacol cover your area… I’d strongly recom...
By Mars , 3 days ago
-
RE: Warm weather and heat pumps.
@editor Oh nothing right now because $ needed for struc...
By Lucia , 3 days ago
-
RE: Potentially more choice including air to air heat pump grants
@jeff Such documents are far too wordy for my ‘daily re...
By Toodles , 3 days ago
-
RE: Getting the best out of a heat pump - is Homely a possible answer?
@grahaml I cannot agree that it is a small percentage o...
By benson , 4 days ago
-
RE: Samsung Gen6 16kW tribulations
@emceed, can you please give us an update on your syste...
By Mars , 5 days ago
-
What's the problem you are trying to solve. The answer...
By JamesPa , 1 week ago
-
Good luck. For what it is worth my system was very def...
By JamesPa , 1 week ago
-
RE: Massive Electricity Cost for Running My Air Source Heat Pump
I agree @mark-h The Building Regs are now very readable...
By Transparent , 1 week ago
-
RE: Help me understand my Mitsubishi Ecodan system
@carpenterstation When changing settings in the ser...
By RobS , 1 week ago