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The cost of electricity for the winter.

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Toodles
(@toodles)
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First of all, I should say that as a non-smoker, these back of a fag packet calculations may not be a true reflection of our winter energy costs - but I have been curious to know roughly how much the coldest four months of the year are going to cost us. I thought maybe I am not alone in wondering how the costs will pan out - having gone all electric, everything will be on the one bill.

The main details are: domestic use is approximately 10 kW/h daily as we are retired and one day is very much the same as any other in terms of energy usage. In addition there is the DHW consumption that accounts for some 4 kW/h of energy per day (sometimes 3.5, others 4.5) and the heat pump consumption during that cold weekend rose to a peak of 2 kW/h for a few hours. I think a safe average would be 1.75 kW/h over a 24 hour period. I am going to assume that the 1st. November to 28th. February covers the ‘winter’ period. Outside of these 4 months, I would hope consumption would drop somewhat.

Using the above assumptions, a day’s consumption would be: 42+10+4=56 kW/h per day.

120 (Nov. - Feb) x 56 = 6,720 kW/h, which at the lowest OE Cosy tariff of £0.1651 per kW/h amounts to £1,109.472. For rough figures, a month of energy using a battery to cover the more expensive hours thus allowing to use just the cheapest 6 hours per day would thus amount to some £277. 

Only time will tell if I’m in the right ball-park with my rough estimate. We have a 4 bedroom semi detached property and due to health conditions, like to keep the whole house at approx. 22.5 degrees C - we are retired and at home 24/7.

I would be interested to hear of anyone else who has made an estimate or who has historical details but based on current energy costs please. I have burnt my boats and removed gas entirely so won’t be going back to fossil fuels. The solar PV is not producing much at this time of year, though on a very good day might heat the DHW needs for us. Come the spring and (I hope) some sun, we should start building up some credit with OE with any exported excess solar energy. Regards, Toodles.

Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!


   
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 Gary
(@gary)
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Unless we have a really cold winter I think you will use less than you have calculated, my entire house used 5000Kwh start of Nov to end of Mar last year.


   
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Toodles
(@toodles)
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@gary I am certainly hoping so myself! I appreciate that my ‘fag packet’ may have a few creases in it that create the odd error - hence my tendency to be a little pessimistic. A very bad (cold) winter could I feel, reach these figures but will be happy to find I have over-estimated! Regards, Toodles.

Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!


   
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(@misterb)
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here are my fag packet calculations, but they were put together to see how i could reduce my expenditure by increasing my storage/PV BUT only if it became cost effective in terms of return on investment. We are heavy users, 5 bedrooms and quite exposed, we are all electric as there is no gas available and we have always had storage heaters from when we bought the property around 25 years+ ago. i actually installed pipework for a central heating heating system (not microbore) and underfloor heating pipework when we built the conservatory, which we live in virtually all the time, so it wouldnt take too long to install a wet heating system (A2W heat pump).

if we didnt have access to a TOU tariff, a storage battery and PV then my bills in the winter would be more than we could afford. as it is they are manageable, JUST! 

my daily use a few days ago, when it was really cold, worked out at around 55kw off peak and 20kw peak - if i could move that 20kw  peak use into off peak i could save £4.20 per day - even more if i turned on additional heaters (we have dimplex quantums and are not heating all the house at the moment) - the quantums use power for the fans and we have an A2A inverter (heat pump) that we could run at a higher temp that heats up the conservatory/kitchen, where we spend most of our time (its also supplemented by a diesel heater!). 

So i assume that would bring it up to around a saving of £6 per day when its really cold - using a nominal number of 'cold' days (and therefore max need) of 15 days per month for Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb and 10 days per month for Oct/Mar  @80 days then the saving would potentially be 80 x £6 = £480 per year during the colder months.

as i also have 4kw of PV which is on a Feed in Tariff, so i could potentially harvest all the production and still get my payments, that could make the 'warmer' 6 months almost free. My 'standby use' is around 300/400 watts per hour, so around 9kw per day, plus hot water heating (immersion heater) at off peak. if that equates to around 4kw then by adding them together starts to give me an idea of how much storage would make a difference. 

my fag packet calculations are that if i had a minimum of 20kw that i could charge during off peak periods then it would be close to the optimum of what i need (no point adding 100kw of storage as it wouldnt be cost effective in my circumstances) but i would like to build some additional capacity into my system, so i will go with an additional 14.3kw (or pref replace my 14.3 and buy two 15kw - based on nothing other than personal choice) 

having that extra capacity in the 'warmer' months might take out the troughs and i wouldnt need to use TOU periods, i have also fitted a a solar diverter that will hopefully stop any excess power going back to the grid, so reducing my payments.

as with all things, it all comes down to initial outlay and actual experience, is there any real point in saving £500 per year if it takes 20 years to cover the cost? however due to my FiT payments (PV system was paid off over 2 years ago) then it makes my projected total cost of @£7,500 a lot more palatable 

i receive around £1000 per year from FiT - so that makes a payback of 7.5 years - but then adding savings @£500 per year makes it £1500 per year set against £7500 - so payback in 5 years at current rates (more savings if energy increases and FiT rates increase) seem to make my project a viable one..... 


   
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(@derek-m)
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@misterb

Have you considered additional A2A heating, which would be much more efficient than storage heaters?


   
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(@misterb)
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@derek-m 

thanks, i think the cost could be quite prohibitive for A2A throughout the house, if i went for individual A2A in each room then each one is around £8-900 and then running 1 is @1kw per hour, so with just 5 or 6 then its 6kw per hour at peak rates ..... 

 

i am also quite happy with the Quantums, they are so much better that the original storage heaters, they are controllable unlike the old ones that just gave out their stored heat until they had none left, so it was hot in the mornings and cold in the evenings !

we have the quantums to give out heat for an hour or two in the mornings and the same in the evenings in the bedrooms, so they never actually fully discharge, and set to come on four times a day in the hall/landing. we then set the lounge ones on all day when we use the lounge, but thats very rare we use that !

 

i would consider another A2A in the hallway landing though - the one we have in the conservatory/kitchen is VERY good, economical, controllable, the only downside being when it goes into defrost mode for about ten minutes though its only once or twice a day (thank god for the diesel heater for those times, as its when its very low temps outside! 


   
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Toodles
(@toodles)
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@misterb I thought the reference to ‘A2A’ was suggesting that using a heat pump to harvest the energy required instead of storage heaters. In such an instance, a requirement of 6 kW/h of heat would cost you approx 1.5 - 1.75 kW/h of input. This would be more economic and I would have thought more manageable. Regards, Toodles.

Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!


   
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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @misterb

@derek-m 

thanks, i think the cost could be quite prohibitive for A2A throughout the house, if i went for individual A2A in each room then each one is around £8-900 and then running 1 is @1kw per hour, so with just 5 or 6 then its 6kw per hour at peak rates ..... 

 

i am also quite happy with the Quantums, they are so much better that the original storage heaters, they are controllable unlike the old ones that just gave out their stored heat until they had none left, so it was hot in the mornings and cold in the evenings !

we have the quantums to give out heat for an hour or two in the mornings and the same in the evenings in the bedrooms, so they never actually fully discharge, and set to come on four times a day in the hall/landing. we then set the lounge ones on all day when we use the lounge, but thats very rare we use that !

 

i would consider another A2A in the hallway landing though - the one we have in the conservatory/kitchen is VERY good, economical, controllable, the only downside being when it goes into defrost mode for about ten minutes though its only once or twice a day (thank god for the diesel heater for those times, as its when its very low temps outside! 

I fail to see how running storage heaters at a COP of 1 could possibly be more efficient than running A2A units at a COP of 3 and above. I would respectfully suggest that you perform your maths carefully without making unsubstantiated assumptions, since other forum members may be misled.

Also you can get A2A systems which have one outside unit, and up to four indoor fan units.

At the end of the day the choice is yours to make, but please try to ensure that you get the facts correct.

 


   
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(@misterb)
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Posted by: @derek-m

Posted by: @misterb

@derek-m 

thanks, i think the cost could be quite prohibitive for A2A throughout the house, if i went for individual A2A in each room then each one is around £8-900 and then running 1 is @1kw per hour, so with just 5 or 6 then its 6kw per hour at peak rates ..... 

 

i am also quite happy with the Quantums, they are so much better that the original storage heaters, they are controllable unlike the old ones that just gave out their stored heat until they had none left, so it was hot in the mornings and cold in the evenings !

we have the quantums to give out heat for an hour or two in the mornings and the same in the evenings in the bedrooms, so they never actually fully discharge, and set to come on four times a day in the hall/landing. we then set the lounge ones on all day when we use the lounge, but thats very rare we use that !

 

i would consider another A2A in the hallway landing though - the one we have in the conservatory/kitchen is VERY good, economical, controllable, the only downside being when it goes into defrost mode for about ten minutes though its only once or twice a day (thank god for the diesel heater for those times, as its when its very low temps outside! 

I fail to see how running storage heaters at a COP of 1 could possibly be more efficient than running A2A units at a COP of 3 and above. I would respectfully suggest that you perform your maths carefully without making unsubstantiated assumptions, since other forum members may be misled.

Also you can get A2A systems which have one outside unit, and up to four indoor fan units.

At the end of the day the choice is yours to make, but please try to ensure that you get the facts correct.

 

 

and i respectfully ask you to consider the price of buying such an A2A unit that has four indoor fans and the fact that i have 10/11 separate areas to heat, so would require 3 such units and the installation costs for them to be fitted. additional to that of course would be the cost of having the quantums removed. i am not sure how that could be deemed to be cost effective? one price on ebay is £4k for a multi split with 3 indoor units (wall mounted which i wouldnt want, i would want floor mounted!) so, for around £12k to have them installed. plus the inconvenience of having them sited around the outside of the house. 

i am not about to work out how many years it might be before running that at a COP of 3 (do they achieve that at temps below 5 degrees?) will return my investment - and thats not including servicing requirements. 

as for a COP - as i am buying electricity at @15p 0030-0430hrs against @36p the rest of the day, it might be suggested that i am already getting a COP of 2 already?

of course, if i didnt have storage heaters and can access the off peak rate, then i couldnt charge my batteries at a cheap rate. it would be interesting of course to see if Octopus accepted three A2A heat pumps as qualifying as a 'heat pump' in the usually understood way, then they may actually accept the one i have and allow me access?

 

i would suggest that my facts and figures are pretty much correct for my personal circumstances and as i stated for me, its all about return on investment - i am not going to pay to have A2A's installed at a potential cost £12k + paying for removal of the quantums to save £1000 per year if in fact thats how much i could save? 

 

i also respectfully hope that other forum members dont blindly follow your advice to have their existing heating system ripped out and replaced at considerable cost, without doing their own figures and carrying out their own due diligence on the returns on investment they might expect ......

 

what i have is far from perfect, but i am trying to make cost effective (including ROI effectiveness) decisions based on what my consumption is, when it is at its highest and how to keep my home warm.

My next project will be additional storage, additional PV and then a small A2W heat pump to feed uf heating in the kitchen/conservatory and i welcome any advice, though that is not the purpose of this thread, it was to feedback to the OP our own experiences of current bills/useage etc, which you have chosen to ignore completely for some reason, despite having made two posts in the thread?

 

happy christmas to all my readers .....

 

 

 

 


   
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(@derek-m)
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Posted by: @misterb

Posted by: @derek-m

Posted by: @misterb

@derek-m 

thanks, i think the cost could be quite prohibitive for A2A throughout the house, if i went for individual A2A in each room then each one is around £8-900 and then running 1 is @1kw per hour, so with just 5 or 6 then its 6kw per hour at peak rates ..... 

 

i am also quite happy with the Quantums, they are so much better that the original storage heaters, they are controllable unlike the old ones that just gave out their stored heat until they had none left, so it was hot in the mornings and cold in the evenings !

we have the quantums to give out heat for an hour or two in the mornings and the same in the evenings in the bedrooms, so they never actually fully discharge, and set to come on four times a day in the hall/landing. we then set the lounge ones on all day when we use the lounge, but thats very rare we use that !

 

i would consider another A2A in the hallway landing though - the one we have in the conservatory/kitchen is VERY good, economical, controllable, the only downside being when it goes into defrost mode for about ten minutes though its only once or twice a day (thank god for the diesel heater for those times, as its when its very low temps outside! 

I fail to see how running storage heaters at a COP of 1 could possibly be more efficient than running A2A units at a COP of 3 and above. I would respectfully suggest that you perform your maths carefully without making unsubstantiated assumptions, since other forum members may be misled.

Also you can get A2A systems which have one outside unit, and up to four indoor fan units.

At the end of the day the choice is yours to make, but please try to ensure that you get the facts correct.

 

 

and i respectfully ask you to consider the price of buying such an A2A unit that has four indoor fans and the fact that i have 10/11 separate areas to heat, so would require 3 such units and the installation costs for them to be fitted. additional to that of course would be the cost of having the quantums removed. i am not sure how that could be deemed to be cost effective? one price on ebay is £4k for a multi split with 3 indoor units (wall mounted which i wouldnt want, i would want floor mounted!) so, for around £12k to have them installed. plus the inconvenience of having them sited around the outside of the house. 

i am not about to work out how many years it might be before running that at a COP of 3 (do they achieve that at temps below 5 degrees?) will return my investment - and thats not including servicing requirements. 

as for a COP - as i am buying electricity at @15p 0030-0430hrs against @36p the rest of the day, it might be suggested that i am already getting a COP of 2 already?

of course, if i didnt have storage heaters and can access the off peak rate, then i couldnt charge my batteries at a cheap rate. it would be interesting of course to see if Octopus accepted three A2A heat pumps as qualifying as a 'heat pump' in the usually understood way, then they may actually accept the one i have and allow me access?

 

i would suggest that my facts and figures are pretty much correct for my personal circumstances and as i stated for me, its all about return on investment - i am not going to pay to have A2A's installed at a potential cost £12k + paying for removal of the quantums to save £1000 per year if in fact thats how much i could save? 

 

i also respectfully hope that other forum members dont blindly follow your advice to have their existing heating system ripped out and replaced at considerable cost, without doing their own figures and carrying out their own due diligence on the returns on investment they might expect ......

 

what i have is far from perfect, but i am trying to make cost effective (including ROI effectiveness) decisions based on what my consumption is, when it is at its highest and how to keep my home warm.

My next project will be additional storage, additional PV and then a small A2W heat pump to feed uf heating in the kitchen/conservatory and i welcome any advice, though that is not the purpose of this thread, it was to feedback to the OP our own experiences of current bills/useage etc, which you have chosen to ignore completely for some reason, despite having made two posts in the thread?

 

happy christmas to all my readers .....

 

 

 

 

If you care to read my initial comment it was "Have you considered A2A heating" which would indeed be much more efficient than storage radiators.

At no point did I state that you should rip out your present system and redo everything, it was merely an option to consider.

I am beginning to wonder if I am wasting my time trying to help people to become more energy efficient, when the vast majority are just interested in heating their homes for next to nothing and 'sod the planet'.

 


   
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Toodles
(@toodles)
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@derek-m Life ain’t easy sometimes, decisions are based on individual’s circumstances; mine were made easier by the fact that the gas boiler was busy packing up on us. The regulator valve had been replaced the year before and was again, failing - everytime the boiler fired up, there was this loud farting sound from the balanced flue. The BG approved engineer who looked at the boiler informed me it would cost £500+ to repair; as it was 14+ years old, I decided it was time to replace said system. Rishi offered me a deal if I used an MCS certified company and fitted an ASHP. Cost a great deal yes, but I feel it was worth it! The heating is now all green and is so even, the comfort is wonderful and the system is silent (indoors at least and not much noise outside either!). The only oil in the flightment is the extortionate price of energy and where I would like to kick those fat cats is probably not printable in this forum. Regards, Toodles.

Toodles, 76 years young and hoping to see 100 and make some ROI on my renewable energy investment!


   
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(@misterb)
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@derek-m 

your first comment was valid, it was the second comment where you spoke about the need to be factually correct i took issue to as i dont see where i was factually incorrect about my own personal circumstances - i think i was also very realistic about my options. i hope you dont remove yourself from offering help/advice/information as we all have something to offer, though none of us are always right all of the time .......

your point re people wanting to heat their homes for next to nothing is the reality but dont forget that any reduction in power use actually does help the environment, though removing existing well working heating systems isnt.

can we get back to the original posters quest to discuss energy use ??

 


   
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