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Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
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https://apple.news/AuUpvCT8qSOekWKJgZ7xSpg

 

 


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Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
Active Member
468 kWhs
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

The problem here is heat pumps are promoted as a mythical different solution from gas boilers, but they aren’t! They are just another heat source!

 

Because they are less energy intense, the heating has to be run in a different way as to what you expect. These controls are called compensation controls and work on the basis that you only need to put as much heat in a building as it is loosing at any one time.

These controls are not new, being mandated on gas boilers in Germany in 1985

They are an essential part of heat pumps because heat pumps produce less kws.

This technology has been deliberately kept out of the U.K. market by regulations, and why many people are having issues with their new heat pumps…the heat miser controls, the nest and the Hive…

Please don’t demonise installers. Ever. They are as good as the available training.

And none has been provided in the U.K. ever, despite the energy saving benefits of such controls

Of course manufacturers of boilers have loved consumers disinterest in heating technology…as they can blame installers

We have all been sold a pup in the U.K., for decades..and now it’s coming home to roost..

 

 

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by Alec Morrow

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Majordennisbloodnok
(@majordennisbloodnok)
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Posted by: @alec-morrow

....

Please don’t demonise installers. Ever. They are as good as the available training.

....

I agree with everything you say about the importance of compensation controls and the stupidity of this country not embracing them.

The reason I've singled out and quoted just one part of your post, though, is that I'm not quite comfortable with that statement being quite so absolute. I agree that installers can't do what they don't know how to do and if there's no training they won't be equipped to do their job. However, we've also seen (and not just in this industry) some tradespeople happily turning in substandard work even in areas where there is plenty of training available.

In short, I wouldn't want the installers to be blamed for the lack of available training but I also wouldn't want that same lack of training to be used by cowboys (and that doesn't mean all installers) to absolve themselves of responsibilities. The Government, the industry regulators, the manufacturers and the installers all have their own sets of responsibilities and I'm all for each being held individually to account for their part. I don't think any group should be demonised en masse, but each individual within that group should be judged for better or worse by their actions.

105 m2 bungalow in South East England
Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5 kW air source heat pump
18 x 360W solar panels
1 x 6 kW GroWatt battery and inverter
Raised beds for home-grown veg and chickens for eggs

"Semper in excretia; suus solum profundum variat"


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Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
Active Member
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Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

The best way of judging an installer or tradesperson is “would you have him to dinner”. No need to ask, but the professional will say no!

You need a very personal and technical relationship with heating engineers at least until a year after the install is complete.

 

 

 

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by Alec Morrow

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HughF
(@hughf)
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I'm going to blame installers... All they do is blame the manufacturers for not training them properly. Whatever happened to continuous professional development? Read, learn, understand, educate yourself.

I'm a software engineer for heavens sake, I don't have an ounce of vocational construction/plumbing training, and I've taught myself more in 6 months about how heat pumps should be installed and controlled than half these installers who've been numerous courses.

 

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
Active Member
468 kWhs
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

@hughf 

 

There is no continuos professional development program in the heating industry…


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HughF
(@hughf)
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Posted by: @alec-morrow

@hughf 

 

There is no continuos professional development program in the heating industry…

There isn’t any in the embedded software industry either - doesn’t stop me learning new stuff and expanding my knowledge base so I can deliver better products.

Perhaps I’m just better than everyone else 😂

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Majordennisbloodnok
(@majordennisbloodnok)
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@hughf, my wife and I were lucky enough to find a company for our install who does indeed believe in professional development of their staff. It shows.

As a result, I'm not going to vilify all installers as lazy whiners blaming everyone but themselves for an inability to do their job. Nonetheless, I have met installers like that. My point was that not all installers are equal; some help themselves with the right attitude whilst others think the world owes them a living. Wherever I meet the right attitude, I'll do my bit to promote that business. Wherever I meet the wrong attitude, I'll make that pretty public too.

I agree with @alec-morrow that the lack of industry-wide professional development support for installers is a disgrace. Those wishing to do a good job shouldn't have to face an uphill battle to equip themselves properly, and the industry regulators, professional bodies and the Government should all be made to face up to their failings in that regard. I don't know how that could be made to happen, but I'd support anything that stood a chance of succeeding.

105 m2 bungalow in South East England
Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5 kW air source heat pump
18 x 360W solar panels
1 x 6 kW GroWatt battery and inverter
Raised beds for home-grown veg and chickens for eggs

"Semper in excretia; suus solum profundum variat"


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Majordennisbloodnok
(@majordennisbloodnok)
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Joined: 8 months ago
Posts: 158
 
Posted by: @hughf
Posted by: @alec-morrow

@hughf 

 

There is no continuos professional development program in the heating industry…

There isn’t any in the embedded software industry either - doesn’t stop me learning new stuff and expanding my knowledge base so I can deliver better products.

Perhaps I’m just better than everyone else 😂

Umm....

Perhaps not in the embedded software industry, but there's plenty of continuous professional development available in the software industry as a whole, plenty of which at least in part covers areas pertinent to embedded software. You sound like the kind of person with the right attitude I was mentioning in my previous post, so it doesn't surprise me you'd take ownership of your own skills development. That puts you in the same camp as the ASHP installers we used. However, if you see a need to follow a further C++ certification (for example), the software industry has plenty of offerings. In contrast, it seems parallel offerings related to various heating technologies are harder to find.

105 m2 bungalow in South East England
Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5 kW air source heat pump
18 x 360W solar panels
1 x 6 kW GroWatt battery and inverter
Raised beds for home-grown veg and chickens for eggs

"Semper in excretia; suus solum profundum variat"


Derek M liked
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HughF
(@hughf)
Regular Member
567 kWhs
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 82
 
Posted by: @majordennisbloodnok
Posted by: @hughf
Posted by: @alec-morrow

@hughf 

 

There is no continuos professional development program in the heating industry…

There isn’t any in the embedded software industry either - doesn’t stop me learning new stuff and expanding my knowledge base so I can deliver better products.

Perhaps I’m just better than everyone else 😂

Umm....

Perhaps not in the embedded software industry, but there's plenty of continuous professional development available in the software industry as a whole, plenty of which at least in part covers areas pertinent to embedded software. You sound like the kind of person with the right attitude I was mentioning in my previous post, so it doesn't surprise me you'd take ownership of your own skills development. That puts you in the same camp as the ASHP installers we used. However, if you see a need to follow a further C++ certification (for example), the software industry has plenty of offerings. In contrast, it seems parallel offerings related to various heating technologies are harder to find.

Perhaps using my area of software development was a bad example, we’re a tiny, engineer led team of 4 so it’s very much a ‘figure it out and teach yourself’ environment for me.

I’m surprised at how little industry wide knowledge you’re average installer has tbh.

Off grid on the isle of purbeck
2.4kW solar, 10kWh LiFePo4, Outback power systems 3kW inverter/charger, solid fuel heating, 10 acres.

My wife’s house: 1946 3 bed end of terrace in Somerset, GSH, DG, work in progress


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Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
Active Member
468 kWhs
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

@hughf yes you are like me!

 

but the lack makes me angry with the system not installers


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Derek M
(@derek-m)
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1964 kWhs
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Joined: 1 year ago
Posts: 1411
 

@hughf

As an Instrumentation and Control Systems Engineer with a 50+ years career I have worked on many projects, small, medium. large and very large, in numerous industries including power generation, oil and gas, pharmaceutical, food production and aluminium casting to name but a few.

Whilst I have attended quite a number of training courses, some of which were excellent, but most were at best mediocre, I have developed the ability over the years to learn how to interpret manufacturers operational and technical manuals, to be able to understand how the equipment works and needs to be configured for best operation.

It is not rocket science, but one does need to understand the basic laws of physics and how to apply them in the real world.

Having given plenty of training myself to junior engineers and technicians throughout my career, I have been quite surprised at their lack of knowledge when it comes to the fundamentals and how to apply them.

When I first joined this forum over a year ago I had only a basic understanding of heat pumps, how they work and how a heat pump based system needs to be designed and configured for the most reliable and efficient operation. If someone is being paid to design and install a heat pump based system then they should make every effort to ensure that they know what they are doing. As I have often encouraged others in the past, 'IF IN DOUBT, ASK'.

On the forum we tend to hear more about the poorly designed and installed systems, of which there appear to be quite a number, which does not bode well for the future. Poorly designed, installed and commissioned systems will not encourage everyone to switch from gas boilers to heat pumps, whatever bribe, sorry incentive, the government may offer, which from what I have seen merely inflates the overall cost by approximately the same amount as the bribe.

There appears to be little inspection if any of completed installations, to confirm that the finished system is actually fit for purpose, maybe this is the missing link that is required to weed out the cowboys, and encourage the more reputable companies to ensure that their staff are adequately trained and competent.


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Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
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Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

it’s all very sad that a modern country can’t embrace technology that does something different from what many expect, to produce the desired out come, higher efficiencies!

 

I wonder how many dissatisfied heat pumps owners it will take to force change..


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Derek M
(@derek-m)
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@alec-morrow

What you propose has already been fully adopted within industrial control systems, I was working on such systems 50 years ago.

As you have correctly pointed out the problem would appear to be within the domestic heating industry, who have not, for whatever reasons, adopted such techniques with any degree of enthusiasm. I can understand the reluctance of installers to spend time and effort configuring and optimising domestic heating systems, when they can just fit a thermostat that simply switches it on and off. The system appears to work and the client is happy until they get their first Winter energy bill.

I'm not certain what would be a suitable way to resolve this problem. MCS make recommendations but no one appears to enforce them. As far as I am aware there is no official form of training of ASHP Engineeers. Since most home systems are different there is no standard design, and a good design is key to obtaining a reliable and efficient system.

I suspect we need an outbreak of common sense, but I'm not holding my breath.


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Alec Morrow
(@alec-morrow)
Active Member
468 kWhs
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 124
Topic starter  

 

E532B60D BAFA 4074 9738 61C0193BB6FD
AD807ACF BCBA 443E A01F 64E99A184CD8

@derek-m there are standard designs , all the same from all the manufacturers. there are no variations 

 

 


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