Hi @hamish-mcmichael and welcome to the forum.

Your intro/CV is interesting... but not necessarily for the reason you were thinking of!

This Forum does not permit advertising or promotion of products and services. So if you had left you message at that, then I think we'd have growled at you...

However, you have raised some interesting issues about 'standards' which would benefit from discussion here. You've also used technical terms (PAS2035, EPC) which warrant explanation, and about which several members of this community might take issue!

We are already aware of serious shortcomings in installation practices from professional installers/specifiers of heat pump systems. I have many pages of feedback and photos from sites being used for the current Zero-Carbon Heating Trials, which are 100% taxpayer-funded by BEIS. Those professionals had their credentials checked by BEIS prior to the trials commencing, and were required to work within predefined standards. However the implementation has most often been appalling, and the largest contractor in the consortium was 'removed'.

As an example, a high proportion of trial sites have incorrect insulation on external pipes. Whilst the thermal characteristics may well fall within the technical requirements, the type of material (not UV-resistant) or the way it was attached (allowing ingress of rain) was unacceptable. Unqualified trial participants had no problem identifying these issues, despite the installations being 'approved'.

I could say the same about the great majority of 'top up' insulation in attics spaces, which has been at the forefront of Government initiatives for the past quarter-century.

I have never yet seen retro-fit insulation properly applied to the edges of the roof-space and down to the eaves. Here's the 'official' diagram which I doubt you'll have any disagreement with:

As PAS2035 is new, and since the new Building Regs Part-L is imminent, I would recommend that we relocate this discussion to a fresh topic called "Insulation, ventilation and retrofit" in the new section of the forum called Safety, Regulations, Tools & DIY Installations

@transparent 

Hi - of course that sounds like a great idea (I'm not trying to sell anything to this group) I'm looking to learn and hear first hand experience of these issues - I'm also happy to share my experience and answer questions. 

The PAS2035 process was set up by the government (it is a publicly accessible standard written by British Standards Institute (BSI) and sponsored by BEIS (Gov Dept Business Industry and Skills) - to try and implement the lessons learned and feedback from the Government funded retrofit projects over the last 10+ years. This was outlined in the "Every Home Counts" review. 

The summary, is that they identified a lot of performance gap issues, between the installation of retrofit measures (of which ASHP's are just one element) and the reality post installation. So they've created this new standard, and created several new professional roles (such as Retrofit Assessor and Retrofit Coordinator) - with the idea that proper retrofit will be a "Whole House" approach - with a focus on fabric improvements first, and mandatory ventilation upgrades.

Where you are most likely to now come across this, is that the government grants (particularly in the Social Rental sector) will start to obligate that you follow the PAS2035 process, which then leads to appointing a PAS2030 registered contractor (or MCS registered for renewable technologies) - if you want to access the grant money.

So far from the chat/ threads I've read on this forum, there is a lot of frustration with installers (even those who are MCS registered) - I guess one element of good news is that if you are applying for the grant money, the project will then be registered on the governments Trustmark Database, and then the works will be insurance backed. So there should be a route to compensation if things really aren't performing.

They are also trying to encourage the Retrofit Coordinators (think of them like a project manager) to undertake proper post installation evaluation and monitoring - so all of this experience and feedback should get fed back into the system.

Its all great in theory - lets see how it works!

Great... so we're now in a separate topic. And I have a couple of questions to fire back at @hamish-mcmichael

1: Do you have a rough idea of how many PAS2030 "advisors" are already approved, and how many BEIS is aiming for in order to cover the UK?

2: Does the remit include a heat-pump installation that the homeowner wishes to run 'off-grid' from a storage battery?

Hi @hamish-mcmichael

As you state it all sounds good in theory.

Does the insurance backed scheme that you mentioned cover systems that are installed for landlords, who are not particularly interested that their tenants have a poorly configured system, that is costing an arm and a leg to run?

Posted by: @transparent

Great... so we're now in a separate topic. And I have a couple of questions to fire back at @hamish-mcmichael

1: Do you have a rough idea of how many PAS2030 "advisors" are already approved, and how many BEIS is aiming for in order to cover the UK?

2: Does the remit include a heat-pump installation that the homeowner wishes to run 'off-grid' from a storage battery?

1: - the Retrofit Academy are actively training Retrofit Coordinators and there are lots of subsidized spaces- they are talking about there being 10's of thousands of these consultants in place over the next few years (there's some data in the Climate Change Committee's 6th Carbon Budget).  At the moment, you can look up the ones who are registered on the Trustmark Database TrustMark - Government Endorsed Scheme For Work Done Around Your Home   however a lot of the professionals are getting hoovered up by the big project management consultancies, as there is a shortage of professionals and a lot of demand, especially in the Social Rental Sector.  You can look at organizations like Retrofit works for professional advice.

2: With regards Grant eligibility, I dont think your scenario would be discriminated against, there are some specific grants for properties that are off the gas network, so why shouldn't an off grid property be eligible?

Posted by: @derek-m

Hi @hamish-mcmichael

As you state it all sounds good in theory.

Does the insurance backed scheme that you mentioned cover systems that are installed for landlords, who are not particularly interested that their tenants have a poorly configured system, that is costing an arm and a leg to run?

The insurance backed work, will be a workmanship warranty for the work of the installer. The equipment should be warranted from the manufacturer. So the question will be who is taking responsibility for design and comissioning performance. I think that the MCS has just split out its guidance, to two separate duties, that of ASHP designer and installer, - so it will be interesting to see who carries the Professional Indemnity Insurance in this scenario.  I gues to date all the liability has sat on the shoulders of the installer - who has to finalise the design.

I'd appreciate more detail regarding the PAS2035 energy assessors please @hamish-mcmichael. I've recently spoken with someone who is PAS2035 approved to provide FREE household energy surveys under a government scheme to those on low incomes (< £30k). So this is a scheme to identify appropriate (insulation) measures as a retro-fit for existing properties.

I asked if the householder could then take that assessment to three heat-pump installers to obtain alternative quotations. They said that wasn't possible. The householder would next need to engage a PAS2035 Renewable Energy Surveyor who would produce a second document to calculate what was required.

Let's suppose that the home-owner had already taken insulation measures and/or the household income was above £30k p.a.  Where would they go to find that all-important PAS2035 Renewable Energy Surveyor?