Posted by: @iantelescope

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Could I ask a question with my Electrical "Cutty Sark"  showing?

 

Radiator Water Power , with an Run Time of 3 minutes and a Cycle Time of 19 minutes , at a flow rate of 7 liters /minute with a Delta T of 3 C  is:

 

Water Power =  3 X ( 7/60) X 4.13 x 1000 X (3/19) = 228 Watts .

Posted by: @iantelescope

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 Water Temperature Delta_T

Water Power

Flow rate

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about.  Above I reproduce 3 graphs you posted purporting to show instantaneous power, flow rate and deltaT.  At any point in time these should be consistent.

Looking at the peaks, which must be at the same time given that flow rate is constant, deltaT peaks around 3.5C, flow rate is 7l/min and 'power' peaks at 200W

Yet 7l/min at 3.5C is 7/60*4200*3.5 =1715W

If I look at midpoints they are 2C. and 7l/s, about 900W not 100W.

Your power graphs (or flow or delta T graphs) are wrong.  I don't know where they are coming from but if you are averaging them (as you suggest above) then thats incorrect, its an instantaneous measurement.

So we dont lose sight of it can I also remind you of what @derek-m said on the previous page, which I endorse:

"Could you please confirm the model of Sharky that you have installed.

I'm afraid that I am becoming confused by the multitude of graphs (both requested and not requested) that you keep posting, since it is not clear which sensor is being monitored. As requested previously could you please add the sensor number to each graph.

Have you made any progress collecting data for IAT and OAT? Little progress can be made until you provide this requested data.

Could you please provide graphs for sensor 1, sensor 3 and sensor 7, with adequate labeling, for the previous 24 hour period. Please don't add any further graphs or information."

@derek-m 

My Sharky:

My sharky model no is:  de-10-m1004-ptb003

Manufactured and built in Germany with the CE Test stamp and Calibration Parameters printed on the outer case.

As the French Samsung Engineer said " only the Germans Really know how the Samsung Heat Pump works".

Flow Rates:

My Samsung Pulse Width Output from the MIM Control board Does NOT Work with or without the B1/B6 continuous motor or Relay switched  B8/B7 Power supply or with the Field bits 4050 to 4061 PWM Controls.

Secondary PWM Motor Control:

My Samsung has no provision for any input to the Secondary PWM Motor control.

The PWM input was , initially left exposed and unused.

I , now provide a PWM Signal Generated by an Arduino, to supply the missing signal controlling the secondary Flow rate .

Arduino Flow Control:

With no functioning PWM Motor control from the Samsung MIM board I currently use a pair of Arduino PWM Ports to vary and control the DIFFERING Flow rates on both the Primary and Secondary Water loops.

Both water flow rates are currently constant as can be seen from the flow rate graphs.

The Arduino was originally that used to measure the room , and outside  Temperature but later used , successfully , to control the Water flow rates on BOTH Water circuits.

Delta_T on BOTH Primary and Secondary Water circuits:

Advised by yourself, @derek-m, I used an Arduino to generate and control the Delta_T on BOTH Primary and Secondary Water circuits.

Delta_T was , successfully increased by setting and adjusting the flow rates controlled by the variable Pulse width Modulation drive.

@iantelescope

Thank you for the additional data

Please read my response above regarding the power/flow/deltaT measured by the sharky.  The graphs you present, which purport to be instantaneous power, flow and deltaT,  are inconsistent, which means your energy and COP measurements are also likely incorrect.

Is one of the three figures you plot calculated by you if so which and how or is the sharky faulty, misconfigured or being mis-read

So we don't lose sight of it can I also remind you of what @derek-m said on the previous page, which I endorse:

"Could you please confirm the model of Sharky that you have installed (done)

I'm afraid that I am becoming confused by the multitude of graphs (both requested and not requested) that you keep posting, since it is not clear which sensor is being monitored. As requested previously could you please add the sensor number to each graph.

Have you made any progress collecting data for IAT and OAT? Little progress can be made until you provide this requested data.

Could you please provide graphs for sensor 1, sensor 3 and sensor 7, with adequate labeling, for the previous 24 hour period. Please don't add any further graphs or information."

Thank for supplying the model number for the energy meter.

Could you please explain why you included the additional information that was not requested, but failed to provide the three graphs that were requested?

@iantelescope

How many radiators are on your system and are they all being heated?

@jamespa 

Water Law change:

I have changed the Water Law determining coefficients to [+20:25] as requested.

Graphs with sensor Position and Type recorded in the Y axis title:

Sensor Sen1 , A Thermocouple.

Sensors Sen1 -Sen2 , Thermocouples bathed in noise !

HEX Sen 3 , DS18B20 sensor,

HEX Sen3 -Sen4 DS18B20 sensors.

Radiator ,Sen9 , Temperature Sharky sensor

Radiator Delta_T , Sen7 - Sen9 , Sharky

@iantelescope

Thank you for providing the graph for sensor 1.

Could you now please supply the graphs for sensor 3 and sensor 7 as requested.

Please do not spend time producing and supplying additional graphs.

How long before you can provide IAT and OAT graphs?

Thanks

There are too many anomalies here so far as I can see, are you sure you have the sensors correctly labelled?

eg Sensor 3 goes down whilst sensor 1 goes up during the period, yet these should follow each other

The value of sensor 9 is higher than sensor 1, how can that happen?

According to your diagram sensor 7 and sensor 9 are on the same side of the radiators, yet you describe this as 'radiator delta_T' and there is a 2C difference whereas there should be almost none.

I'm sorry but I don't see how we can currently trust the measurements.  We know that the power measurement is incorrect, it appears that this may be true of some of the temperature measurements also.

Please supply the sensor measurements that @derek-m has requested.  Please spend the time to ensure that they are labelled/measured correctly and that your diagram is correct rather than on producing additional graphs.

please see post above

@jamespa 

Success again!************!!

Your idea of increasing the Water Law defining coordinates [+15:25] to [+20:25] has revealed a great deal about the Heat Pump performance.

For the first , and only time the Room Temperature has soared to 24.8 C this morning. Currently a roasting 25 C with the Radiators just producing , for the first time a perceptible  heat.

Despite your reservations , all of the sensors , including the Sharky , now confirm the situation as of this morning 16th Sept 24:

Sorry , but I will have to use the sensor information as relayed to my P.C.

1) Radiator Water Temperatures:

A) Outgoing Radiator water Temperature:

The Outgoing Radiator Water Temperature rises to a saturation point at 0400 when the Run Time equals the Cycle time!

B) Radiator Difference Temperature , Delta_T :

Again , note the sudden stop in cycling at 0400 in the morning when Run Time =Cycle Time.

2) Power

A) The Power as measured by the Sharky is :

Again , notice the Saturation , when the Run Time = Cycle Time.

Note also the Power has a peak value of ~200 Watts.

B) Electrical power.

15th afternoon         Evening 15th Sept     Morning 16th Sept

Electrical power consumed during the evening of 15th and morning 16th Sept 24.

The last Electrical power shows the Power consumed at saturation , Run Time = Cycle Time is again ~200 Watts!

3) Cop and REAL COP

Note the convergence of COP AND REAL COP !

4) Losses

The Losses have reduced to almost ZERO!!

5) Cycle and Run Times

The Cycle and Run Times are now very ( worryingly) Short.

6) Energy Consumption

The Heat Pump is consuming too much Electrical Energy, but , the Room temperature is now > 25 C.

Conclusions :

1) Increasing the Water Law defining Coordinates to [+20:25] produced a room Temperature of 25 C !!!

2) The Sharky , in displaying a very low Power consumption is correct, displaying and measuring a very low power consumption.

3) The Very Low power at saturation  reflects a deeper malaise with the Heat Pump system.

I will now decrease the Water Law defining coordinates  to [+17:25]  i am now roasting for the first Time feeling some heat from the radiators!

Im glad you are warm however the water power as you present it from the sharky (and thus your claimed COP and real COP) is nonsense, as explained several posts above.  The 'deeper malaise' you speak of is based on this, and since the basis is nonsense, so is the conclusion.  

Currently we are making very little real progress, other than showing that the laws of thermodynamics apply (which was never in doubt).  Please concentrate on what has been requested.

I presume (but please confirm) you have set the water law offset at 0.  If not please do so and leave for a day before changing the water law coordinates again.

Please post the sensor readings requested by @derek-m.  Until you do this I cannot help further, and if you continue drawing incorrect conclusions from flawed data, you will end up back where you were 75 pages ago.

@jamespa & @derek-m

Readings .

Here are the readings from the Thermocouples as requested.

1) Sen1, Thermocouple .

Note the Saturation , Run Time = Cycle Time

2) Delta_ T , Sen1-Sen2 , Thermocouples

Note , again , the Cycle stopping at saturation. Even bathed in Thermocouple  noise the Saturation condition when Run Time =Cycle Time is clearly shown.

3) HEX input Sen3 , DS18B20 Sensor

Again, note the behaviour at Saturation .

4) HEX Delta_ T Sen3-Sen4, DS18B20 Sensors

Again, note the Saturation display

5) Radiator out , Sen7 , Thermocouple Sensor

Again note the performance at Saturation when Run Time = Cycle Time

I have again reduced the /water Law Defining coordinates to [+17:25] .

Currently , my room Temperature has reached 24.5 C , too hot even for me.

But , the System does heat, albeit with a maximum Consumed power of 200 Watts and an output Water power of 150 Watts.

All sensors are accurate and working .