Notifications

Clear all

Best control strategies for heat pumps that are way oversized

JamesPa · 2024-12-30T15:35:25Z

Heat pumps that are oversized by a factor of 2 or more seem to be commonplace. What's the best control strategy? Discussion invited, whether based on theory/conjecture or from anyone who has the problem and has done some experiment. Thus topic was triggered by another thread here where the oversizing may well be a factor of 3. However its a worthwhile generic discussion given the frequency with which the problem occurs and keeping it initially generic might trigger more interest/ideas!

Page 2 / 2 Prev

Air Source Heat Pumps (ASHPs)

Last Post by Judith 1 year ago

21 Posts

6 Users

2 Reactions

3,176 Views

RSS

cathodeRay

(@cathoderay)

Famed Member Moderator

Joined: 4 years ago

Posts: 2799

31/12/2024 10:55 am

If I have read and copied the Midea data tables correctly, I am not sure I can see much 'efficiency' difference between a smaller heat pump running flat out and a large heat pump running at a lower output. The data here is from Midea's 8kW foot warmer (on the left) vs their 16kW roaster (on the right). Copying PDF tables is always a hit and miss affair, but these tables are just about readable, and what you want to do is, comparing across the same OAT and LWT, find matching outputs (the CAP or capacity column (in Watts), the other two are COP, and PI which is power input in Watts), and then look at the COP and PI values. Of course, none of the outputs match, making this very much a Mark I Eyeball exercise, but in general the 8kW COPs are perhaps slightly worse than the 16kW for similar outputs. For example, at an OAT of 10 and a LWT of 40, the 8kW unit can put out 7774W at a COP of 4.48 using 1735W (the 'norm' row) while the 16kW unit can put out 7441W at a COP of 4.59 using 1620W (the 'min' row) (relevant cells highlighted in attached image). The outputs are not identical, with the 16kW model output slightly lower, and the difference in COP is small, and furthermore these are 'lab' results, ie controlled conditions, not typical real world conditions.

I would much rather have observational data from real world installation...

Midea 14kW (for now...) ASHP heating both building and DHW

ReplyQuote

RobS

(@robs)

Estimable Member Member

Joined: 1 year ago

Posts: 110

31/12/2024 5:56 pm

A few Mitsubishi figures from their data book for comparison...

5kW output at 12C OAT:

5kW unit is COP of 6.15

11.2kW unit is COP of 5.9

5kW output at -7C OAT:

5kW unit is COP of 3.0

11.2kW unit is COP of 2.9

The 11.2kW is the closest to double the 5kW in Mitsubishi's R32 range, the 6kW is a software limited 8.5kW so not a good comparison.

Comparing the Mitsubishi 8.5kW to the 14kW for an output of 8kW, at 12C and -7C, gives the same COP values.

So a larger unit running at approx. 50% vs smaller unit at approx. 100% doesn't seem to always result in greater efficiency.

ReplyQuote

Judith

(@judith)

Honorable Member Member

Joined: 2 years ago

Posts: 485

31/12/2024 6:20 pm

I feel the best first question after establishing that a heat pump is over-sized (even massively so say 3x) is does that affect efficiency?

John Cantor covers this well in this YouTube session https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0oszaqP0TI4

the critical aspect being is it at the limit of its turn down range and then short cycling (which is inefficient). If it isn’t inefficient then the being over-sized is fine, but often isn’t.

Then forcing the cycling to effectively a shorter time on period would be a good first tactic. This would work best with high thermal mass, eg. UFH or solid brick house with good insulation. Aligning the on time to cheap electric is an opportunity.

2kW + Growatt & 4kW +Sunnyboy PV on south-facing roof Solar thermal. 9.5kWh Givenergy battery with AC3. MVHR. Vaillant 7kW ASHP (very pleased with SCOP 4.7) open system operating on WC

ReplyQuote

JamesPa

(@jamespa)

Illustrious Member Moderator

Joined: 3 years ago

Posts: 4391

Topic starter 31/12/2024 6:42 pm

Posted by: @judith

↑

Then forcing the cycling to effectively a shorter time on period would be a good first tactic. This would work best with high thermal mass, eg. UFH or solid brick house with good insulation. Aligning the on time to cheap electric is an opportunity.

Pretty much I'm coming to that conclusion, TBH it was my hunch when I started this thread but I wanted (and still want) to see if anyone comes up with anything different. So far not but it's still open to debate.

4kW peak of solar PV since 2011; EV and a 1930s house which has been partially renovated to improve its efficiency. 7kW Vaillant heat pump.

ReplyQuote

Judith

(@judith)

Honorable Member Member

Joined: 2 years ago

Posts: 485

31/12/2024 7:37 pm

Posted by: @jamespa

↑

Posted by: @judith

↑

Then forcing the cycling to effectively a shorter time on period would be a good first tactic. This would work best with high thermal mass, eg. UFH or solid brick house with good insulation. Aligning the on time to cheap electric is an opportunity.

Pretty much I'm coming to that conclusion, TBH it was my hunch when I started this thread but I wanted (and still want) to see if anyone comes up with anything different. So far not but it's still open to debate.

I agreed with your approach on the other thread and so pulling out the general case is a better way of capturing it.

2kW + Growatt & 4kW +Sunnyboy PV on south-facing roof Solar thermal. 9.5kWh Givenergy battery with AC3. MVHR. Vaillant 7kW ASHP (very pleased with SCOP 4.7) open system operating on WC

ReplyQuote

Tim441

(@tim441)

Honorable Member Contributor

Joined: 3 years ago

Posts: 398

01/01/2025 8:47 am

On LG ashp they have a "silent mode" that operates at reduced power (intended to reduce noise at night) and some users use successfully to reduce cycling etc in oversized pumps.

I dont know if other ashp have similar function?

Listed Grade 2 building with large modern extension.
LG Therma V 16kw ASHP
Underfloor heating + Rads
8kw pv solar
3 x 8.2kw GivEnergy batteries
1 x GivEnergy Gen1 hybrid 5.0kw inverter
Manual changeover EPS
MG4 EV

ReplyQuote

MikeF

(@mikef)

Eminent Member Member

Joined: 2 years ago

Posts: 23

01/01/2025 10:08 am

@tim441 Re the silent mode, It made me think have a missed something, but i have looked it up, on the Viessmann all the silent mode does is restrict the fan speed, this doesn't reduce the minimum capacity of the compressor therefore doesn't effect minimum output. When the pump is trying to go as low as it can, to reduce output, the fan is already at a reduced speed.

👍

ReplyQuote

Tim441

(@tim441)

Honorable Member Contributor

Joined: 3 years ago

Posts: 398

01/01/2025 10:15 am

@mikef interesting!

As mentioned .. from info in LG user group it does reduce cycling and output. But I don't use it myself as my heat pump seems approx right size.

ReplyQuote

Judith

(@judith)

Honorable Member Member

Joined: 2 years ago

Posts: 485

01/01/2025 10:26 am

On this forum with advanced monitoring available a Mitsubishi user whose pump was oversized recommended the cloud based auto-adaptation function to improve COP.

It tends to more technical discussions there

This post was modified 1 year ago by Mars

2kW + Growatt & 4kW +Sunnyboy PV on south-facing roof Solar thermal. 9.5kWh Givenergy battery with AC3. MVHR. Vaillant 7kW ASHP (very pleased with SCOP 4.7) open system operating on WC

ReplyQuote