@burtis Perhaps you meant to write - Stilson-thing else? (Sorry😉) Toodles.

@toodles 

I have just sent them a email requesting some sort of data for COP and SCOP probably come to nothing like you say it would just be nice to know it's better than normal weather comp. 

We shall see

Another post from a confused and disappointed recipient of an ECO4 installation.

I have watched Mars'  Q & A videos, read volumes, still absolutely bemused by it all. Don't think I am particularly stupid but this has overwhelmed me. The system was left running on a Friday evening when installers scarpered, can't think of a better term, told an electrician would call following Monday to explain operation as well as finishing some electrical jobs. 

The noise of the unit installed in spare bedroom could be heard in my bedroom but was much worse in the kitchen below, a vibrating rumbling sound, very unpleasant. 

Much of the ongoing problems are probably my fault as I will not have the installers back. Cannot believe some things were thought acceptable in the first instance and so-called remedial work exchanged one bad job for another. 

This is a nightmare. I have managed to stop heat to radiators by turning portable thermostat as low as possible, had to open bedroom window as too warm and stuffy. The unit still fires up at times, probably protecting itself from the cold, no idea. 

I don't know what to do, think there should be easier and quicker access to an intermediary who could see whether complaints were justified or not. The company has offered more remedial work. However, given their last effort I have no faith that it will improve matters.

This was an ordinary, lived in, bit shabby, stone built house, nothing fancy, all I expected was much the same with the addition of some insulation and radiators. Didn't see any plans or a contract before work started, just a visit from the person I thought was doing the work.

 Entrance hall, repair to a damaged cupboard, sawn off shelves, window sill trim after remedial work. Told pipes would be surface mounted but thought they would be less industrial. The "you have no say in the installation" still shocks me, I should have stopped it.

 There are many more pictures. Told installation to industry standards but I am beginning to wonder which industry.

I am old and confused, made to feel I am being unreasonable, that I should be grateful I have CH for "free". 

@dwynwen so sorry to hear about this experience.  I would advise that you do have them back to fix and finish if they are offering. Ask them if they can adjust the speed on the circulation pump which might reduce the noise and then complain about them through the mcs scheme. They should be mcs registered if they're getting the grants. That means there will be a technical trade body and a customer service trade body that they are members of and you can try complaining through them. Phone mcs for advice. Unfortunately I found the standards didn't cover noise nuisance to the homeowner, only to neighbours. So, although it highlighted other issues, it didn't address the noise. I am now paying another company to come and check the equipment and suggest noise reduction measures. So, you could jump straight to that but be aware it could make it hard to complain through mcs if the set up has been worked on by someone else. It's an arduous process. Like you, I am horrified by how noisy my set up is and I just don't understand that anyone thinks it's acceptable! Good luck - maybe try posting a new thread asking for advice as lots of heat pump anoraks on here.

@lokisam Thank you for reply. 

I have posted here before and been given lots of no doubt sound and learned advice about ASHP operation but totally beyond my understanding. 

Think this another warning to make sure you know what you are getting with ECO4 and what you are not. There was no joined up thinking, sub-contractors rushing from one job to the next as I now understand.

You say how the complaints process is arduous, it shouldn't be. There should be a quick one stop assessment but when has anything govt. sponsored been straightforward!

There has been "remedial" work. I am not making frivolous complaints just think a job should be done properly especially the second time round.

Perhaps this is the wrong place to air my confusion and disappointment.

@dwynwen hi,  it's a perfectly fine place to air your disappointment. I have had a similar experience and apart from dealing with the noise all day, I'm constantly wondering why it's considered acceptable.

Posted by: @dwynwen

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I have posted here before and been given lots of no doubt sound and learned advice about ASHP operation but totally beyond my understanding. 

You have been given lots of practical advice and while I totally accept advice is not an order (an individual is free to accept or decline advice eg if I as a doctor advise you to stop smoking it is still your choice as to whether you follow that advice) I do sometimes see suggestions of wilful refusal to consider advice. Heat pump advice is not complicated, any adult of sufficient wit to be capable of independent living can understand the advice if they put their mind to it. If you can say which bits of the advice are totally beyond your understanding, I am sure we will do our best to rephrase it in a way that can be understood.

@cathoderay As I said I am sure advice is good and valid. However, I have very limited mobility and have not been well, one of the reasons I qualified for ECO4. I do have a modicum of wit left but obviously not enough. My working life was spent farming so I was quite practical, used to a variety of daily tasks, did some ag. eng. at college.

I had no idea what was being installed, couldn't follow contractors about the house. They were friendly and helpful which made my subsequent discoveries of shoddy work so hurtful. My fault, should have asked to see a contract, a spec., order of works etc. Wasn't thinking clearly.

When I saw the installation in small bedroom I was shocked, looked like something Heath Robinson would have made, thought there would be only a box outside. Contractors have offered to return, third time, but simply don't trust them.

Have heard so many scare stories recently about cost of running ASHP I am scared to use it. 

What also worries me is that altering anything will invalidate warranties.

Thanks to this forum (is that the correct term) I am learning a lot so thanks again.

Posted by: @dwynwen

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My working life was spent farming so I was quite practical, used to a variety of daily tasks, did some ag. eng. at college.

Running a heat pump is absolutely not beyond you! Nor do you need to worry about invalidating warranties, the sorts of things we are talking about count as normal every day adjustments, which in some ways an end user is expected to make.

High running costs are a worry, mine have been astronomical over the last month. But this is a 'feature' of heat pumps, they can be very expensive in very cold weather, but equally they can be very economical in moderate and mild weather, and over time they cancel out. If I looked just at my last month's usage, I can tell you for sure my heat pump would already be heading for the tip. But if I look back over the last year, I can see it really isn't that bad (I do have higher than average running costs, but that has nothing to do with the heat pump, it is because I have an old leaky building and my heating costs are high whatever form of heating I use).

Think of your heat pump in cold weather being like a tractor struggling to climb up a very steep hill. Of course it is going to use more fuel and complain bitterly! But when it crests the brow and starts down the other side, it will coast along very happily, using very little or even almost no fuel.

For ease of reference, can you repost your main concerns about the way your heat pump is running (just the heat pump, not the remedial works which I am sure we all agree are very necessary, but they are a separate concern)? I am sure that we can then come up with some practical suggestions to improve things. 

@cathoderay House is old, long with bedrooms in roof space, now only used by summer visitors. Asked that only part of house CH but request denied.

The installation is a 16kW Samsung split system, photo below.

Bedroom and sitting room get too warm and stuffy, noise in kitchen below machinery, rumbling, perhaps vibration, it's sitting on v. old trapdoor, former access before bedroom conversion. 

High  pressure in hot water tap, low in cold water. Washing machine no longer works due to low water pressure; it's a fairly old Siemens and suffered this problem before due to leaky pipes.

Sorry if I wander off topic but my initial contact was to air my disappointment and warn others of pitfalls possible with ECO4. Not sure now that I want this to work, lived in old leaky houses most of my life, never had CH, not even sure it is more climate friendly than the solid fuel and log burners I was used to and just heating spaces as they were used.

@dwynwen - OK, thanks.

First off, we have similar houses, long (and narrow), old and leaky. In addition (may or may not apply to your home), mine is listed, and the internal wall space is limited (low ceilings, low window sills etc). This type of home is more challenging to heat, whatever the heat source. But it can be done with a heat pump, I have done it!

Posted by: @dwynwen

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Asked that only part of house CH but request denied.

This is a bit of a can of worms. Generally anything grant installed will have ultra-rigid requirements, which typically include whole home heating to the low 20s when it is about as cold as it can get outdoors. It is basically an all or nothing offer. If you want to accept it, you have to accept all of it.

Now in the case of heating part of the house, there is some sense in this all or nothing approach, because air source heat pump that use circulating water (air to water heat pumps) are generally not well suited to limited and localised heating. Indeed, the general advice is to remove all obstructions to flow - no zones, no TRVs, no closed valves, ie operate as 'open circuit' as possible if you have an air to water heat pump, as you do. The reasons are somewhat complex, buried in the laws of thermodynamics that I definitely struggle to understand, but the general effects are that (1) the restrictions fight the heat pump, which then complains, and (c) for the complex reasons mentioned (@jamespa is the forum expert on these), heating only half the house counter-intuitively does not halve the bills. There may be a small saving, or maybe not even that.

Bottom line: given you now have an air to water heat pump, best to heat the whole home. There may be a case for heating only the ground floor, but as I say it is a complex area, and we (meaning really @jamespa) would need more details before making any suggestions. Were you starting from scratch again, air to air heat pumps (basically air conditioning units that blow hot air) might have been better suited to your home, but we are where we are...       

Posted by: @dwynwen

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Bedroom and sitting room get too warm and stuffy, noise in kitchen below machinery, rumbling, perhaps vibration, it's sitting on v. old trapdoor, former access before bedroom conversion. 

I trust you'll not be standing under that trap door when it gives way! If rooms are in general too warm, then either you are running at a high fixed water/rad temp, or, if you are using weather compensation (Water Law in Samsung-speak) as you should be, then it is set too high. Weather compensation is not complicated at all, it is no more and no less than setting the temperature of the water coming out of the heat pump that heats your home according to the outside air temperature. Cold outside? Increase the water (and so rad) temperature. Mild outside? Decrease the water (and so rad) temperature. It is simple but very effective, but it does need to be set right. More often than not the occupier/end user has to do this, because it is a trial and error process that takes time.

The noise rumbling and vibration may well be because the heat pump is working harder than it should (as evidenced by rooms too warm). If you turn it down, that may reduce the noise etc as it is working less hard. @transparent is good at commenting on actual installations, he may have something to say. Have you (I think I know the answer...) worked out how to check and change the settings on you Samsung heat pump, ie is it running under Water Law, and if so, what are the settings? I am not a Samsung expert, I have a Midea unit, but there are plenty of Samsung experts on the forum who I am sure will help with your settings.

Posted by: @dwynwen

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High  pressure in hot water tap, low in cold water. Washing machine no longer works due to low water pressure; it's a fairly old Siemens and suffered this problem before due to leaky pipes.

I think this is more of a plumbing than a heat pump problem. I think it may simply be a question of having and setting the right valve that distributes the mains pressure equally between the hot and cold water supplies. Again, @transparent is the expert on this stuff. I happen to know he is rather busy at the moment, so don't expect an immediate response, but I am sure you will get one in due course.

Lastly, I note in the second photo the cat seems very content. But I also note you have the stove in action. If the heat pump is also on, then your home is very likely to be too warm, unless you dial down the heat pump a bit!

Posted by: @dwynwen

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Posted by: @dwynwen

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High  pressure in hot water tap, low in cold water. Washing machine no longer works due to low water pressure; it's a fairly old Siemens and suffered this problem before due to leaky pipes.

 

 

I think this is more of a plumbing than a heat pump problem. I think it may simply be a question of having and setting the right valve that distributes the mains pressure equally between the hot and cold water supplies. Again, @transparent is the expert on this stuff. I happen to know he is rather busy at the moment, so don't expect an immediate response, but I am sure you will get one in due course.

This is definitely a plumbing 'problem' not a heat pump problem, although it is linked to your heat pump installation.  The pressure in the hot circuit can be easily adjusted down using a valve which will one of the two visible near to the newly installed hot water cylinder.  I can see that they have grey and white caps and are towards the top of the cylinder.  If you post a close up showing both of these valves and the immediately surrounding plumbing I am sure someone can identify precisely which of the two it is.  Note however that this will (probably) also adjust down the pressure in some or all of the cold taps.

Regarding the washing machine its difficult to diagnose precisely without knowing your plumbing, but again its a plumbing problem nothing to do with the ASHP.  It may or may not be affected by the adjustment to the hot water pressure I mentioned above, but if the pressure is high enough to splash out of a sink it should be high enough for a washing machine so its unlikely to be linked to this.  There is often a filter in the inlet to a washing machine which may be blocked, possibly due to debris from the works.  This could be the cause.   You mention leaky pipes, are there still leaky pipes.  This is a job for a plumber or a washing machine engineer, nothing to do with the heat pump.

Where is the noise/rumbling most evident and what is the nature.  Sometimes noise from the outside unit is transmitted indoors via the pipework, particularly if the hoses immediately adjacent to the heat pump aren't flexible (which they should be).  The other possibility is air in the circuit.  However the two noise sources sound very different so it should be possible to tell if you give us more detail.

If you post more detail about your house (shape, size and in particular layout etc) it might be possible to provide some suggestions about whether to heat the whole or a part.

Obviously if you dont want to get this working (which you seem to suggest above) that is your prerogative and I wont press you for more information if you dont respond, but you do have some easily fixed problems.

The main installation of which you posted a picture is actually rather neat, so its disappointing that they made a mess elsewhere!