@transparent 

How does their software collect that data?

From Smart meters?

... being polled each hour to obtain 'live' data?

It's an odd decision to build their own billing software on a time-frame which is different to the half-hour slots used by both Smart Meters and the UK energy wholesale markets.

I don't know if their billing works on hours too what I know is the live monitoring in the app does.

They're not necessarily the same thing... I just need quick feedback on how my heat pump pulls energy so I only wanted an energy company that can provide that. When I get a bill I will let you know.

I have no IHD because I used the mini although one is on order but there's a manufacturing backlog.  

Meanwhile, I get my half hours via the Bright app but it lags. 

As for 'zonal pricing' for which there's a lot of lobbying from some quarters, it's not particularly good news for consumers.  It's become a political football in some countries that already have it because it can massively increased prices. 

Yes, energy nationalism is becoming a 'thing' complete with culture wars and demands to remove inter-connectors.

Zonal pricing suits energy trading but not so much energy as a public good. 

@transparent 

It's got both - look:

 They are interactive so if I touch them I get more details. I think they are both quite nifty.

Those two orange spikes are water heating. Grrrr - someone needs to invent a better system for hot water. 

Posted by: @lucia

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Those two orange spikes are water heating. Grrrr - someone needs to invent a better system for heating hot water

I think the physics is your enemy here. Water has an enormous heat capacity compared to more or less anything else.  So it needs a lot of energy to heat it.  That's unavoidable.

The answer is to use less hot water!

However I suspect you knew that!  We would all love to repeal the laws of thermodynamics, but it don't expect to see that in my lifetime even if some political leaders may promise it.

@JamesPa

I think the physics is your enemy here. Water has an enormous heat capacity compared to more or less anything else.  So it needs a lot of energy to heat it.  That's unavoidable.

 

But combi gas was pretty good [] - instant, cheap, only heating water as used. We need a new heating invention for water.

I hate seeing the temperature of my tank get lower and lower. So much is wasted - heat it up, use some water then waste the energy used to heat what you didn't need. Or go the other way and heat repeatedly to keep up with demand.  

Posted by: @lucia

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@JamesPa

I think the physics is your enemy here. Water has an enormous heat capacity compared to more or less anything else.  So it needs a lot of energy to heat it.  That's unavoidable.

 

But combi gas was pretty good [] - instant, cheap, only heating water as used. We need a new heating invention for water.

I hate seeing the temperature of my tank get lower and lower. So much is wasted - heat it up, use some water then waste the energy used to heat what you didn't need. Or go the other way and heat repeatedly to keep up with demand.  

Not really that much wasted. 

In winter, assuming your DHW tank is within the heated envelope of the house, it offsets the space heating, so no actual loss. 

In summer I grant its 'wasted', but my 200l tank loses less than 2kWh/day.  In summer this will have been generated at a cop of 5 or better, so 400Wh energy in, or about the same as one and a half of your typical a typical 'always on' electrical devices such as your router (12W * 24h * 1.5= 432Wh). 

Overall negligible, and certainly not the most important thing to worry about unless you religiously go round every night turning off all your 'standby' electrical devices!  Alternatively reduce your shower time by half a minute to save this amount of energy every day (so one quarter of a minute on an annualised basis.  For the many who shower for 10 minutes (Im not suggesting you do), hardly a challenge.

The 'physics problem for any invention (although per the above Im not sure its needed) is the desire for 20l/min showers.  Thats 42kW, a lot of power.  Currently only fossil fuels can deliver power at that rate (in a domestic setting) hence the need for storage. 

Of course we dont really need 20l/min showers and we could capture the waste heat from the water we pour down the drain.  The technology to do both is easily available, but we cant be bothered.  Its not an invention that's needed, its better humans.  Sadly humans appear to be getting worse not better.

@jamespa 

In winter, assuming your DHW tank is within the heated envelope of the house, it offsets the space heating, so no actual loss. 

It's in the cellar and put it straight on a concrete base. I should've insisted on insulating the base at least but it was an adhoc decision. So a done deal. The cellar is warm [] but even if the heat rises it makes no noticeable difference to my home heating. 

I will try and add some further insulation to the tank - it has lost at least 4º degrees in a day today since that graph above when it was heated to 50º @ 10am using nearly 3kwh. For me it's only just about useable after 24 hours. I like hot water. 

When the kids are here it has to be heated multiple times - the older the kids the longer the shower...  

...

Our posts crossed.  

The 'physics' problem for any invention (although per the above Im not sure its needed) is the desire for 20l/min showers.  Thats 42kW if heated real time, a lot of power.  Currently only fossil fuels can deliver energy at that rate (in a domestic setting) hence the need for storage (three phase electric can do 60kW, but I dont know of a 3 phase domestic water heater)

Of course we dont really need 20l/min showers and we could capture the waste heat from the water we pour down the drain.  The technology to do both is easily available, but we cant be bothered.  Its not an invention that's needed, its better humans.  Sadly humans appear to be getting worse not better.

You are right that insulation on (and when you get a chance under) your tank is needed!

Posted by: @jamespa

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Sadly humans appear to be getting worse not better.

Some of them even get elected and then decide energy policy  

Posted by: @lucia

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As for 'zonal pricing' for which there's a lot of lobbying from some quarters, it's not particularly good news for consumers.

That depends on whether the decisions are being made on the basis of MW or £ Sterling.

Unfortunately Ofgem only seems to regulate the latter...
... which means those of us who could resolve energy problems without creating a profit can't get a seat at Ofgem's table.

There needs to be a Condition attached to the Consent granted for a commercial grid connection in GB.

The first obligation must be to our own energy supply, rather than selling at a higher price to another country via the interconnectors.

During the last two major storms, NESO was unable to draw on supplies from a significant proportion of the Battery Energy Storage Sites because their output had already been committed elsewhere.

Consequently, NESO was paying CCGT sites extraordinarily high prices to keep our lights on.
See reports in The Guardian and Watt Logic.

Those prices are then reflected in the costs passed on to us by domestic Energy Suppliers.

"With the transmission pipeline currently oversubscribed at more than 560GW – three times what is
needed to meet Britain’s net zero goals – there is huge uncertainty around what substations need
building and where."

National Grid Electricity Transmission, Dec’24

@transparent 

There needs to be a Condition attached to the Consent granted for a commercial grid connection in GB.

The first obligation must be to our own energy supply, rather than selling at a higher price to another country via the interconnectors.

During the last two major storms, NESO was unable to draw on supplies from a significant proportion of the Battery Energy Storage Sites because their output had already been committed elsewhere.

Very quick reply because I have to work.

You can't 'attach' any conditions like that. It's Europe-wide and before all the Brexiteers get excited, Britain designed it in the first place. We're the worst!   [] 

Britain is the keenest 'deregulator' and is closer to the US in its extreme privatising, slash-and-burn, neoliberalisation than any other European country. This is not political party specific btw - they are all the same in this - Left, Right, Centre, - except maybe the Monster Raving Looney party.

The energy market in Britain shifted from 'public good' to 'deregulated market' a long time ago - no submission to Ofgem or anyone else is going to change this. There's no 'depends' [sadly] it's how it is. 

Ms WattLogic is a fossil fuel lobbyist who is an offshoot of the Trump supporting, Koch-funded IEA and not a reliable source. To say the least.

If you are following Musk's destruction of the US government in any detail, the IEA want the same on steroids. Even more deregulation... 

Locational pricing is the subject of intense lobbying right now because combined with other policies it will yield big energy traders big $$. And yes, they can sell it 'elsewhere'. 

I'm actually working on and writing about this stuff so I'll behave myself and get back to work.

@lucia & @transparent For me the answer to the conundrum of private companies selling the capacity that tax payer have paid for and consumers will pay for is Prof Dieter Helms proposal of auctioning firm energy not capacity that can be sold elsewhere https://dieterhelm.co.uk/reports-advice/

Hi All,

Has anyone signed up to Tomato Energy’s Tomatopia scheme? We have solar thermal hot water and a newly installed Baxi heat pump and we’re on Tomato Energy Lifestyle tariff. I'm just interested to hear anyone’s experience of TE’s solar and battery plan. 

Thank you,

Cathy

@cathyem1 Should we be wary of these ‘Upstart’ companies that introduce very low (as I understand it anyway) tariffs? They are certainly not the only company that have come along like this (I have no idea what financial backing they have so I am only posing the question without any intent to doubt their sincerity) and then fallen on hard times. Such companies are then being bailed out by the likes of Octopus Energy whereby we all then have to pay for the failure. What control (if any) exists in this market please? Regards, Toodles.