None of the similar ones ever get many votes

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/621874

While we have inflation at 10%, a cost of living crisis, a government in trouble etc timing is not great whatever the pros and cons related to the climate emergency

The next general election and election pledges are the next opportunity i suspect?

It would be a wasted petition i suspect at the moment. Wouldn't get enough votes and would limit opportunities for other petitions a bit better timed?

As has been pointed out on the forum before and in the press, there has been a marked change in those taking up the boiler upgrade scheme for installing heat pumps, less off grid homes, more working mains gas boiler homes. I suspect the price of electricity isn't the limiting factor while there are only 30k installs a year under the boiler upgrade scheme.  It needs a joined up plan including electricity pricing which we won't see until nearer the election now I think

I thought I'd go straight to source and do a bit of questioning. I've had an answer now, so I thought you might all like to see the results and comment before I respond.

My initial email to my MP was as follows:

Dear Mrs Richardson

There has been a lot of talk in the media about families struggling with the current cost of energy, along with advice on how people can save on their energy bills and what financial help the Government is providing to ease the burden. However, I have heard little about what efforts the Government is expending to change the energy prices themselves.

I am well aware why oil and gas is currently expensive. I am also well aware of the knock-on effect of those high prices on the cost of any electricity generated through burning fossil fuels. However, electricity from renewable sources now forms a significant proportion of the electrical energy mix and, as I write, wind-generated energy is forming just under 50% of the electrical energy being supplied to my house compared with gas-generated at about 14%. The cost of creating this electricity from renewable sources is independent from the oil and gas issues, yet the electricity price we pay is set based on the cost of oil and gas; in essence, the cost of fossil fuel electrons - often a minority - is pushing up the cost of green electrons.

All the energy providers are calling for reform of the market, whether it be windfall taxation or a change in how electricity prices are set. All consumers are calling for reform of the market given current and likely short-term future prices are entirely unsustainable. If both buyers and sellers want the same thing and the only barriers are policy-based ones, could you please help apply further pressure on the Government to reform the electricity pricing system and publicise what they are doing.

Many thanks

As a result, she "delegated" the responsibility (quite rightly, in my opinion) to the Minister of State for Energy and Climate. I've attached the response she got from him.

To my mind there's a distinct portion of "we've set up a committee to examine how to investigate this matter" within the answer, but it does also make sense in part. I would, however, like your comments on the answer before I put together a considered response to (hopefully) do my bit in pushing in the right direction.

@majordennisbloodnok I would be asking why the green energy levy is on electricity and not gas. It accounts for roughly 25% of the cost for electricity (if I remember correctly). Given renewable heating is exclusively powered via electricity this seems an oddity which needs to be corrected. Given we wish to encourage uptake of renewable heating why are we making it artificially more expensive Vs gas. The only real way to drive renewables is to make them cheaper than the gas alternatives.

@majordennisbloodnok 

As I have stated previously, the original pricing arrangement was as described in the 'MP reply', after the electricity supply industry was initially privatised. Some time later the pricing system was changed to one where electricity generators bid in individual prices for each 30 minute period throughout the day, and if called to supply, that is the rate that they got paid. So if the company was too greedy and bid in a high price, they may not be called and hence would receive no payment. Whilst it may not be perfect, it at least provided some level of competition into the market place, and helped prevent companies from making excessive profits by ripping off the consumers.

It would appear that at some time in the past the pricing system has reverted to the original model, which was found to have been manipulated by some of the companies, hence the need for the first change.

I wonder if customers would be happy, if they went and bought a new or second hand car, only then to be charged the same price as the most expensive car sold during that particular 30 minute period?

@jeff I think it's all about getting the message out there to the right forums to get enough of a backing for the petition.  I have to admit I was not aware of this previous petition so perhaps it's more about the awareness to get the traction required.

Things take a long time to happen in government and I hear your point but I do think it would be better to get the ball rolling sooner. 

Posted by: @batalto

↑

@majordennisbloodnok I would be asking why the green energy levy is on electricity and not gas. It accounts for roughly 25% of the cost for electricity (if I remember correctly). Given renewable heating is exclusively powered via electricity this seems an oddity which needs to be corrected. Given we wish to encourage uptake of renewable heating why are we making it artificially more expensive Vs gas. The only real way to drive renewables is to make them cheaper than the gas alternatives.

The government reduced the green levy to zero as part of the Energy Price Guarantee when it was first announced. It is currently being funded from general taxation. 

From the announcement:

This takes account of temporarily removing green levies, worth around £150, from household bills. 

It would be less than 25% anyway simply due to the dramatic increase in electricity. I suspect it will be a long time before we get back to early 2021 prices for electricity. 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-energy-price-guarantee-for-families-and-businesses-while-urgently-taking-action-to-reform-broken-energy-market

@majordennisbloodnok Thanks for taking the action to write to your MP.  My points in response would be :

- What are the timeframes for the review to complete and some tangible change to be seen?

- Personally I think you should be charged less if you have decided to help the government achieve it's Net 0 target using renewables with reduced electricity tariffs.  I find it absurd that the government are promoting heat pumps when the cost of electricity is so high making it unviable.

- One of the best ways to incentivise adoption is to make it a good financial proposition.  If the price of gas and electricity were on par there would be no argument to use heat pumps and if instead of investing millions/billions on Gas exploration research reallocate the funding to installing more heat pumps.  I seem to remember watching a video on Heat Geek suggesting the reallocation of government funding could cover heat pump installations for all properties in the UK where an installation was possible.  Can't seem to find the link at the moment but if come across it again will post.

- Remove the money being spent on Hydrogen boiler testing, it's going to cost even more and has a lot of challenges given it's properties.

Posted by: @soniks

↑

@majordennisbloodnok Thanks for taking the action to write to your MP.  My points in response would be :

- What are the timeframes for the review to complete and some tangible change to be seen?

- Personally I think you should be charged less if you have decided to help the government achieve it's Net 0 target using renewables with reduced electricity tariffs.  I find it absurd that the government are promoting heat pumps when the cost of electricity is so high making it unviable.

- One of the best ways to incentivise adoption is to make it a good financial proposition.  If the price of gas and electricity were on par there would be no argument to use heat pumps and if instead of investing millions/billions on Gas exploration research reallocate the funding to installing more heat pumps.  I seem to remember watching a video on Heat Geek suggesting the reallocation of government funding could cover heat pump installations for all properties in the UK where an installation was possible.  Can't seem to find the link at the moment but if come across it again will post.

- Remove the money being spent on Hydrogen boiler testing, it's going to cost even more and has a lot of challenges given it's properties.

 

I'm afraid that it is not quite that simple.

Consumers are already being charged less for electricity than gas in relative terms, since the price of electricity is around 3 times higher, whilst the price of gas has increased by 5 times.

I think that something like 85% of homes have gas central heating at the moment, at a time when the electricity grid sometimes struggles to meet present demand. What would be the demand if everyone was switched to heat pump's, and what would be the source to meet this extra demand, gas or coal fired power stations?

Burning gas to heat homes is probably 80% to 90% efficient, whilst burning gas to generate electricity to heat homes, is approximately 33% to 50% efficient. So a heat pump would need to be in the order of 300% efficient or more, otherwise you could end up actually burning more gas on occasion.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for heat pumps of all types, A2A, A2W or GSHP's, but what appears to be missing is a coherent energy policy for the whole of the UK.

What you need to understand is that the UK energy generation and distribution industry is no longer under Government control, but is in fact controlled by boards of directors, often not even located in the UK. So the best that the Government can do is to bribe, cajole or threaten (though very rarely) these boards of directors to stop thinking so much about their shareholders and hefty bonuses, and a little more about their customers. I don't think that is going to happen in the near future, what do you think?

If the Government genuinely wish to lower the UK's carbon footprint, they should set up, and fund, a team of adequately trained technicians, to go to properties around the country, and free of charge, inspect and correctly adjust whatever heating system is being used, to ensure it is operating at maximum efficiency. This could possibly reduce central heating energy demand by up to 20%.

At the same time these technicians should assess the level of insulation and recommend possible improvements, which could possibly be provided free of charge to the less well off. This measure again could reduce energy consumption by up to 20%.

An overall reduction in energy consumption could benefit all by reducing demand, which in turn reduces production, which means less gas or coal being burned and the need for less wind or solar farms. Simples. 😎 

Then the Government can think about encouraging all the mains gas users to switch to heat pumps in a planned and structured manner. I hope you don't mind if I don't hold my breath. 🙄 

@derek-m the grid are already getting ahead of the game in terms of the future electricification that is happening -

Also there have been papers written looking at future grid capacity and concluded it's far less problematic than previously thought - https://www.phamnews.co.uk/can-the-grid-cope-with-demand-the-argument-for-heat-pumps/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CHowever%2C%20unlike%20direct%20electric%2C,than%20air%20source%20heat%20pumps.%E2%80%9D

I think the point being made is there is more renewable generation now than ever before and that trend will continue given the government targets to fully decarbonise.

Posted by: @derek-m

↑

If the Government genuinely wish to lower the UK's carbon footprint, they should set up, and fund, a team of adequately trained technicians, to go to properties around the country, and free of charge, inspect and correctly adjust whatever heating system is being used, to ensure it is operating at maximum efficiency. This could possibly reduce central heating energy demand by up to 20%.

At the same time these technicians should assess the level of insulation and recommend possible improvements, which could possibly be provided free of charge to the less well off. This measure again could reduce energy consumption by up to 20%.

An overall reduction in energy consumption could benefit all by reducing demand, which in turn reduces production, which means less gas or coal being burned and the need for less wind or solar farms. Simples. 😎 

Then the Government can think about encouraging all the mains gas users to switch to heat pumps in a planned and structured manner. I hope you don't mind if I don't hold my breath. 🙄 

This would certainly be a good approach as I'm sure there is efficiency to be gained with current usage patterns and system setup.