@transparent Once again, many thanks for this. 

Having looked into this in a bit more detail, I think it is beyond my skill set and the time I have available to learn and do it!

I think my best option is the SD6, although the cost of it is huge. If you are aware of any turbines that offer good performance at lower cost, please let me know. 

I had quotes from Britwind, Ryse Energy and SD Wind and the latter seemed best overall value. 

Thanks for the honest, open comments @knukes

There will always be wind-turbines offering 'good' performance at lower cost, but you need to factor in two other issues:

• the fixed price of installing a tower and cabling to the house
• the length of time which the mechanism will continue to work. Unlike solar-panels, a wind-turbine has moving, mechanical parts.

The turbine head is significant, but it's unlikely to account for more than 50% of the overall costs.

When comparing between manufacturers, it might be helpful to view the generator as an electric motor in reverse. This technology has benefited greatly from the advent of neodymium (rare earth) magnets, and the surge in demand for electric transport (bicycles, cars, and even skateboards!).

The thin electric motor within the wheel-hub of an EV looks very different to the classical cylindrical topology of 20 years ago.

Proven (now SD Wind) understood this at the outset. The engineering design of their generator is conceptually similar to that of the in-hub motor. It makes very efficient use of the magnetic flux, which enabled it to be smaller and lighter than its competitors of the time. Remember, they were developing their inner generator mechanism in the 1990s - a 'generation' before electric bikes (pun intended).

[Aside: in similar fashion, I would regard the compressor design of the GSHPs from Kensa to be way ahead of the competition. It's not the bland exterior of the enclosure you should be looking at!]

The reason I raised the subject of storage batteries here is that wind-turbines tend to be erected in rural areas where the tendrils of the electricity grid are at their thinnest.

There are genuine technical concerns about whether the DNO will allow you to connect its output to their distribution grid. Until you have an offer-to-connect from your DNO, it's premature to consider the SD6 as your preferred option.

Installing a wind-turbine with an output rating above 3.6kW may not work if you're relying on a grid connection from its inverter/controller.

18 months ago I had a 3.6kW Growatt solar-inverter fitted as part of a trial from my Energy Supplier. Their on-site pre-installation survey failed to check the mains voltage of the area, which normally rests around 246v.

Although I had a storage-battery as part of the same trial, there was no control-system to apportion the generation between storage and grid-export. So on a sunny day, the battery would be filled by noon, leaving the inverter to spend the afternoon exporting everything to the grid.

It does so by raising its output voltage above that of the incoming mains.

To export the 16A available, that would frequently take it above 253v, which is the maximum permitted.

In compliance with its G98 certification, the inverter then shut down, discarding the available solar input until the voltage dropped sufficiently. The other participants on the Trial would never know of this energy-loss, but I had installed my own metering on the solar input to the inverter which allowed me to monitor what was happening:

Had I not been evaluating the generation/storage system myself, I wouldn't have expected such an event to be occurring. My house is just 270m from the local substation, with a brand new 80sq.mm cable connection to the pole 40m away. The 25sq.mm link to my house is also brand new, courtesy of Western Power Distribution (now NGED).

In the case of solar panels, the generation source can easily and safely be disconnected (open circuit). It will cause no damage.

But what happens to your wind-turbine in similar circumstances? Just where is 6kW of energy going to be directed?

@transparent Our house and our neighbour has a relatively new overground single phase spur off also relatively new overground three phase cabling (300 yards away), so hopefully the infrastructure would be sufficient. However, it might be that we need to upgrade to three phase anyway and will see what extravagant quote Electricity North West give us for this.

We are trying our best to go down the wind route as it seems more sustainable for us, but if it becomes too complex or too expensive, there is always the more conventional solar/battery option as a backup. 

This is all useful discussion for anyone else contemplating a venture into domestic wind turbines, so I'm glad it's here on the forum.

Firstly, upgrading to 3-phase is an important step. Most people do so because they require more than the baseline 25kW domestic supply. But it also makes good sense for other reasons. Let's face it, most wind-turbines are 3-phase generators in the first place!

In your case @knukes you need to start at with the relevant online application form at Electricity North West.

If I was in your position, I would complete the application for G98/G99 single-phase export consent at the same time. That will allow you to evaluate your options. Both applications should be free of charges.

At 300m away, your nearest 3-phase connection point is more than the total distance between my house and its substation. So costs are non-trivial. If there's any possibility of neighbours on the same supply also wanting wind-turbines, then it makes sense to discuss this with Electricity North West. In my area an engineer from NGED would arrange a site visit within a couple of days.

A new connection or upgrade charge consists of two parts

1. the actual costs of the new cable, fuses poles etc
2. a contribution towards upgrades required over time in the surrounding grid infrastructure

From 1st April 2023, the cost of the infrastructure upgrade contribution will be zero. This is due to a Significant Code Review by Ofgem in May this year, which caught the DNOs by surprise. Their budgets for the next 5-years had already been submitted in preparation for the new RIIO-ED2 agreements. They will now need to find a way to cover the costs of infrastructure upgrades with no incoming contributions. RIIO-ED2 will penalise them if they attempt to do so by raising costs to consumers.

Your engineer will be well aware of this, and might suggest waiting until after April for you to apply.

Note: upgrading a property to 3-phase also involves having a new meter fitted by your Energy Supplier. If you didn't already have a Smart Meter, then this will be done at the same time.

The new 3-phase Smart Meter will operate by Vector Sum Metering. Thus if you are exporting 1Kw on each of the three phases, but importing 4kW on just 1-phase for use in-house, then you only pay the difference (1kW).

Your DNO engineer may need to discuss this with you because that would also cause serious phase-imbalance at the sub-station transformer.

Not only does phase-imbalance cause losses (as heat) in the transformer windings, but there will be a resultant current-flow in the Neutral connection. In an urban area the adverse effect of the vector sum will be reduced due to the loadings across so many houses. But a rural area has no such averaging effect.

There are a number of solutions, including a new 3-phase in-house consumer unit, to divide the circuits across the phases.

Better still, houses with 3-phases in rural areas should be switching to 3-phase EV chargers and 3-phase heat-pumps.

And at this point we begin to wish we'd had this discussion before deciding on a heat-pump!

@transparent Thank you for this. It is really helpful. Getting a wind turbine is so complicated. 😀 

But I’m determined to press on and learn as overall, I think it will be beneficial. 

We’ve spoken to all of our neighbours within site lines of where the turbine will go, and all of them want to be kept informed of how we get on. They all want one too!

Getting a wind turbine is a long-term investment. All the costs, effort and knowledge-acquisition goes in up-front, which is why it seems so complicated at the moment.

If you get this initial stage right, then the following 25-years of generation will be a breeze! 😉 

I hope all those neighbours who you've spoken to are aware of this forum topic and are reading it.

Since they all seem to be interested in pursuing the same strategy, I'm about to propose another way to progress this project...

Electricity North West (ENWL) need to be made aware of neighbourhood interest at the earliest opportunity. If this project was happening in West Devon, there would be a positive response and a rapid meeting called between the following parties:

• Distribution Grid Area Network Manager
• Neighbours with an interest to engage
• Local parish council
• A representative from the Local Planning Authority (usually a Borough or District Council)

You need access to a map of the area Distribution Grid, showing the local sub-station(s) to which the neighbouring properties are all connected. The ENWL Manager will have data on the current loading factor and available capacity for renewable generation. However, local sub-stations are not monitored. So you also need access to the electricity data for the Primary sub-station which supplies the local transformer(s), usually at 11kV.

The discussion needs to evaluate the possibility of the neighbourhood forming themselves into a Community Energy Group and taking a combined approach. The most common strategy is for the group to enshrine itself as a Community Interest Company (CIC) and register your credentials with Companies House.

ENWL can then communicate with the CIC rather than a disparate group of individual households, making separate connection requests over the months & years.

The CIC can register for VAT at the outset. You don't first have to reach the £85k threshold.

That enables you to claim back the VAT on all the turbines, controllers, cabling and storage assets. You no longer need to worry about which items are being acquired at 5% (VAT on energy) and which at 20%. You won't be paying it anyway!

You are likely to get a better deal from SD Wind, who will be supplying several turbines over a phased installation program. You may also wish to receive basic training on raising/lowering the masts for maintenance, and can invest in your own winch. That reduces your reliance on an approved installer for standard maintenance schedules. If you already have the equipment, you can appoint who you like for the work.

ENWL can then look at the projected turbine installations over the coming months/years and make a sensible decision as to what changes will be required at the sub-station(s).

If there's already lots of spare capacity, then they may just alter the taps to reduce the base-line voltage that you receive. That enables you to export more from the turbines without hitting the upper-end 253v. ENWL are already proposing just such a strategy for 1000 of their transformers under a project called Smart Street. But that's for reasons of reducing energy bills. Even so, the concept is well known to them.

ENWL have had Ofgem reject their proposal for increased revenue for investment in Community Energy Nett Zero projects because they failed to provide adequate evidence. That's because too few people like you are coming forward to discuss such schemes!

That screenshot is taken from their Draft Determinations for the RIIO-ED2 licence agreement with Ofgem, which commences April'23.

The CIC effectively owns and manages the turbine assets and resells the electricity to its members. There are several ways to achieve this. I expect ENWL already has experience of other Community Energy Groups in their region who are using the (440v) Distribution Grid to pass their own generated electricity between sites.

Let me stop at that point and await your reaction.

@transparent Thank you again for this and nice pun about it being a "breeze" for 25 years!

I have actually spoken to my neighbours about developing a Community Energy Group, but none of them are interested.

To be honest, while people are friendly enough, there isn't a huge amount of community spirit around here (disappointingly). While we are comfortably off, some of our neighbours are very well off, so investing circa £40k on a turbine doesn't bother them (it is a lot of money for us!). 

That means they would rather see how we get on and then do it themselves rather than engage in any community plans. 

It is a shame as we are blessed with natural resources here and between us we could have wind, solar and even hydro generation and all work together, but I just can't get interest in working together on this. 

I know this is really short-termist on their behalf, especially as you point out that there is also ENWL to consider and its requirements. But if they won't listen, there isn't too much I can do. 

You've got potential for hydro in the area?! 😲 

That's more valuable an asset than all other forms of renewable generation. Hydro-power is a ‘special case’ in that the power-source (water) can be stored and the output level controlled.

The generator portion of a hydro system is very similar to that in the head of a wind-turbine, but uses pelton- or turgo-cups instead of blades. The axis of rotation can be vertical or horizontal without loss of efficiency (unlike a wind-turbine).

The diagram is from Renewables First, whose website has a comprehensive knowledge-base to read.

Hydro generators can be much smaller than those used for wind-power. A 3kW generator will produce a steady output at whatever level you set. Contrarywise, a wind generator's output fluctuates, and therefore requires to be over-sized for the desired level of output.

Installation and maintenance of the mechanism is also cheaper. They're not stuck at the top of a 15m pole for a start!

Your neighbours are not going to be able to isolate themselves by using wealth. Their electricity is derived from the same grid which supplies households experiencing energy-poverty.

Few people yet appreciate that our Smart Meters have inbuilt functionality to favour some customers over others. In future, higher-consumption users can find themselves disadvantaged according to the way in which tariffs are applied.

I am in direct communication with the public body which sets these standards, and enforces them on behalf of Ofgem. Just last week I raised the issue of supplying periods of free electricity to households who rely on food banks. Yes, that can be achieved!

How many power-cuts this winter would it take for your neighbours to re-appraise their views on increasing the resilience of their electricity supplies?

@transparent Unfortunately we don't have potential for hydro but some of our neighbours do. Our local pub, which is half a mile away actually has a river right next to it, and a huge historic water wheel. It applied for a permit to install hydro power, but the Environment Agency fees were so high that it made it prohibitive. 

I agree with you that wealth doesn't immunise my neighbours from the realities of the grid, but it can be very difficult to persuade individualist wealthy people of that. Maybe they will get it when the power gets cut off like you say. 

A local pub is an excellent location at which to spend time solving the energy crisis. 🍻 

However the presence of a historic water wheel probably isn't leading you in the required direction. In days of yore the requirement was for a low-speed drive shaft, to power milling operations for example.

To run a 3kW PMG (Permanent Magnet Generator) you want a fast-flowing jet through a narrow pipe from a water head. The output power is proportional to the head. So you're looking for tributaries of that river or storm-drains that empty into it from higher ground

To retain the water head over a long period of time, it should be supplied from slow-draining land such as a peat-bog. If you don't (yet) have such a natural location, then import a couple of these and wait until next year:

Whilst thinking about PMGs, I'd like to make an observation for the benefit of others who will come across this topic in future.

If you are of a mind to tackle a wind or water turbine as a DIY project, then you can import a suitable PMG ready-built from the Far East. Here's a modular design in which each of the five 'wafers' is a 1kW device.

Personally I'd start by replacing each of the two main bearings for the equivalent sized unit made by a German manufacturer like FAG. They can be easily bought in the UK for less than £20.

There's obviously a lot more involved in fabricating the housing and blades/pelton-cups to go with it. But compare this against the £40k which @knukes gave us as a ballpark figure for a 6kW turbine from SD Wind.

The Return on Investment (RoI) for a DIY installation is very much shorter.

@transparent these guys had a fun DIY crack at a low head turbine.

Yes, I agree with @batalto that it's possible to run a micro-hydro generator with a low-pressure head of water. But let's note that the author of that YouTube clip was getting pretty excited about the yield being as high as 500w, which speaks volumes before you even watch the video!

May I again draw attention to the Renewables First website which prints the following information:

From which I've taken the first two columns and plotted them:

Personally, I would still think the 5kW output worthwhile striving for if I wanted to run a domestic heat-pump.

But if the available water-head isn't great, then I'd need to be more careful in choosing the optimal size of the delivery pipe. There have been some pretty good outcomes from DIY experiments using standard plastic waste pipe.